Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

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avada
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Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by avada » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:24 pm

Hi!

Both the appearance and customizability of the titlebar is pretty sad. Is there no hope for improvements?

The titlebar does not have native look. It has a wind10-esque look on my win8 computer. Out of place pale grey color, instead of the normal theme color. Even worse are the titlebar buttons.
It's also taller than the normal titlebar height, worsened by the menubar which can be collapsed but not completely hidden/removed, even if I clear all elements off it.

The titlebar customizability is rater limited and ugly. You can only put elements to the left side. Which pushes the titlebar text to the right, it doesn't remain centered.
Menus moved to the titlebar get a pointless dropper. Which neither looks look, nor is useful.
It's rather impossible to create something practical and good looking this way.

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:46 pm

Hello Avada,

I am sorry to hear you are not happy with the new UI, but it is quite customizable - including the colours!
Yes it is not using the default theme, but this is so that we can allow you to add buttons to the top most area of the window as well.
Most other people find it quite convenient and space saving, so I do not believe this will be changed to using the Windows theme.

Regards,
Stefan

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:10 pm

Hi avada

Also, if you are looking for assistance customizing the UI, please take a look at this article:
https://www.tracker-software.com/knowle ... the-Editor

I hope it helps!
Daniel McIntyre
Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

Sales: +1 (250) 324-1621
Fax: +1 (250) 324-1623

avada
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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by avada » Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:40 pm

Tracker Supp-Stefan wrote:Yes it is not using the default theme, but this is so that we can allow you to add buttons to the top most area of the window as well.
The two is not mutually exclusive as proven by firefox years ago:
Image
Tracker Supp-Stefan wrote:Most other people find it quite convenient and space saving, so I do not believe this will be changed to using the Windows theme.
My problem (besides the out-of-place/ugly look) is the rather limited and problematic customizability, as I detailed. And the stupid dropper appearing if I move a menu from the menubar here.

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by Patrick-Tracker Supp » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:30 pm

Hello Avada,

Do note that you can switch to the classic UI if you find the ribbon too cumbersome.

Image

Your previous requests for using the windows theme for the title bar color have been denied. In windows 10, our current paradigm does match the UI. Windows 8 is an older operating system to which we are unlikely to invest development resources for cosmetic changes.

Using cursory terms such as "stupid" is not the way to bring about positive change. Please provide a screenshots of this "stupid dropper" and we will consider making changes, should the dev team deem them appropriate.

Please elaborate on what you mean by "Even worse are the titlebar buttons." I personally find them exceedingly useful in my day-to-day use of the Editor. My menu tabs are collapsed by default with my most used tools pinned to the title bar for quick access.
It's also taller than the normal titlebar heigh
I am afraid that, at least on my machine (Win-10) the title bar is the same height as FireFox and other applications:

Image

In fact, you can auto-hide the toolbars in Editor to make them use less space. Simply double click the Home tab for example to toggle this functionality.
worsened by the menubar which can be collapsed but not completely hidden/removed, even if I clear all elements off it.
To remove a menu tab, simply right-click anywhere on the toolbar and un-tick the items you wish to hide:

Image

You can also place commands and tools on the left and right side of the title bar. You must simply drag-&-drop the command into the existing toolbar binding box (light gray box as shown below) :

Image

Furthermore, you may be interested to know that you can add separators between tools on the title bar. Simply right click the tool with the customize toolbars dialog open (Right click the toolbar> Customize toolbars).

Image

If you have suggestions for improvement, please do not hesitate to explain them to us in specific detail so that we can submit a reasonable feature request to our development team - otherwise we can only guess as to what might be considered an improvement to some users, but perhaps not to others.

To reiterate, we will not be changing the color scheme use of the title bar in the foreseeable future.

Sincerely,
If posting files to this forum, you must archive the files to a ZIP, RAR or 7z file or they will not be uploaded.
Thank you.

Cheers,

Patrick Charest
Tracker Support North America

avada
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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by avada » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:41 pm

Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:Using cursory terms such as "stupid" is not the way to bring about positive change. Please provide a screenshots of this "stupid dropper" and we will consider making changes, should the dev team deem them appropriate.
I fail to see how I could be clearer, but here's an image also:
menus.png
menus.png (4.97 KiB) Viewed 1008 times
Also, just noticed that it's extremely hard to hit the uncollapse button of the menubar (when the other toolbar is already disabled):
uncollapse-button.png
uncollapse-button.png (50.96 KiB) Viewed 1008 times
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:Please elaborate on what you mean by "Even worse are the titlebar buttons." I personally find them exceedingly useful in my day-to-day use of the Editor.
I meant the actual titlebar buttons. The close/minimize/maximize buttons. It's annoying that it's different from all other windows. Bigger and even the red color for the X is missing.
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:I am afraid that, at least on my machine (Win-10) the title bar is the same height as FireFox and other applications:
On win10 perhaps, not on win 8. The default height anyway. Because the XE's titlebar's height is fixed.
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote: Simply double click the Home tab for example to toggle this functionality.
?
What is "home tab"? If you mean the main toolbar, nothing happens.
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:To remove a menu tab, simply right-click anywhere on the toolbar and un-tick the items you wish to hide:
A blank bar still remains with the collapse/uncollapse button. (Which is shown in the animation above.)
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:You can also place commands and tools on the left and right side of the title bar. You must simply drag-&-drop the command into the existing toolbar binding box (light gray box as shown below) :
This doesn't work here at all. (classic toolbar view)
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:To reiterate, we will not be changing the color scheme use of the title bar in the foreseeable future.
A silly decision. Not everyone uses the bugfest that is Win10.

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:53 pm

Hi Avada,
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:Please provide a screenshots of this "stupid dropper"
avada wrote:here's an image also
We see what you are talking about, the arrows are a tad redundant. I have submitted a feature request to the dev team to have these arrows removed.
avada wrote:Also, just noticed that it's extremely hard to hit the uncollapse button
Your screenshot here shows the collapse button, and the only time that it is difficult to press is when all bars have been hidden via (F8, F9). If you restore the bars you will find that this button is quite easy to attain. To disable specific toolbars such as the menu bar once you have removed the menu items, simply right click on the toolbars and choose customize toolbars. Then, un-tick the Menu bar. I have done this on my machine as a proof of concept and found that moving the Search and Find options to the title bar, then disabling the "quick find" Toolbar offers some efficient use of screen space.
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:Please elaborate on what you mean by "Even worse are the titlebar buttons."
avada wrote:The close/minimize/maximize buttons. It's annoying that it's different from all other windows. Bigger and even the red color for the X is missing.
We have chosen to adhere to the Windows 10 aesthetic as it is currently the most recent version of windows available. You will find that when you hover the mouse over the 'X', it does indeed turn red, much like Microsoft apps developed for windows 10.
avada wrote:What is "home tab"? If you mean the main toolbar, nothing happens.
Patrick was referencing the Ribbon UI for this one, sorry about the confusion, To minimize the Classic UI you must use the Collapse arrows, or (F8, F9).
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:You can also place commands and tools on the left and right side of the title bar. You must simply drag-&-drop the command into the existing toolbar binding box (light gray box as shown below) :
avada wrote:This doesn't work here at all. (classic toolbar view)
I am afraid that you are mistaken. In classic UI it is still possible to add tools and commands to the right side of the title bar next to the Full screen and UI options button as shown below:
Image
Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:To reiterate, we will not be changing the color scheme use of the title bar in the foreseeable future.
avada wrote:A silly decision. Not everyone uses [...] Win10.
While it may not be used by everyone, it is the most recent version of the Microsoft operating system to date.
Daniel McIntyre
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Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

Sales: +1 (250) 324-1621
Fax: +1 (250) 324-1623

avada
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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by avada » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:42 am

TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote:We see what you are talking about, the arrows are a tad redundant. I have submitted a feature request to the dev team to have these arrows removed.
Cool.
TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote:Your screenshot here shows the collapse button, and the only time that it is difficult to press is when all bars have been hidden via (F8, F9). If you restore the bars you will find that this button is quite easy to attain. To disable specific toolbars such as the menu bar once you have removed the menu items, simply right click on the toolbars and choose customize toolbars. Then, un-tick the Menu bar. I have done this on my machine as a proof of concept and found that moving the Search and Find options to the title bar, then disabling the "quick find" Toolbar offers some efficient use of screen space.
Not true. I moved/removed all menus and collapsed it. I wasn't even aware of F8/F9 (but it apparently results in the same thing). It's also not true that it's the collapse button, which is obvious. That's the mirrored one of this and appears in the middle:
collaps-uncollapse.png
(animation)

Regardless, keeping around a collapsible empty bar (still wasting some space) is pointless. Also, if I uncollapse it F9 doesn't do anything anymore. I think this shouldn't be visible when the menubar is removed, whether manually (both drag and drop and disabling via customize) or via f9.
TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote:We have chosen to adhere to the Windows 10 aesthetic as it is currently the most recent version of windows available. You will find that when you hover the mouse over the 'X', it does indeed turn red, much like Microsoft apps developed for windows 10.
TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote:While it may not be used by everyone, it is the most recent version of the Microsoft operating system to date.
So when MS arbitrarily changes the theme again, you'll make win10 users also use an out of place titlebar? (And so on...) Always using the theme's look would however work on both older and newer OS-es. A wast number of people will always be on a different OS version. Not to mention different themes within an OS. You should strive for a generic solution, instead you regress to only blend in with one OS version only.
TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote:I am afraid that you are mistaken. In classic UI it is still possible to add tools and commands to the right side of the title bar next to the Full screen and UI options button as shown below:
Apparently you need to have the quick launch toolbar enabled. It's an odd to tie customizable areas to toolbars.

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:17 am

Hi avada,
Not true. I moved/removed all menus and collapsed it. I wasn't even aware of F8/F9 (but it apparently results in the same thing). It's also not true that it's the collapse button, which is obvious. That's the mirrored one of this and appears in the middle:
...
Regardless, keeping around a collapsible empty bar (still wasting some space) is pointless. Also, if I uncollapse it F9 doesn't do anything anymore. I think this shouldn't be visible when the menubar is removed, whether manually (both drag and drop and disabling via customize) or via f9.
I'm initially inclined to agree with you, but would like to play around with that a bit. Can you export you settings and either upload them here (Edit --> Export Settings) wrapped in a ZIP folder, or email them to support@tracker-software.com with a link back to this topic, for reference. By using your settings, we'll be able to get a proper feel for what you're trying to achieve and advise, or add feature requests, accordingly.
So when MS arbitrarily changes the theme again, you'll make win10 users also use an out of place titlebar? (And so on...) Always using the theme's look would however work on both older and newer OS-es. A wast number of people will always be on a different OS version. Not to mention different themes within an OS. You should strive for a generic solution, instead you regress to only blend in with one OS version only.
Currently, Windows 10 and Windows 7 hold an extremely dominant market share of all Windows systems (the only ones that we currently support). Windows 10 holds approx. 40% of the Windows OS market, while Windows 7 holds approx. 47% (rounded to whole numbers for ease):
https://www.computerworld.com/article/3 ... ows-7.html

Windows 8 & 8.1 hold an approx estimated Windows market share of 10%. Given how small the market share, and how large a task it would be to perform such a cosmetic refactoring (while also adding little to no financial incentive for us to spend the money on), it's just not going to happen. The Windows 7 theme is kept on Windows 7 machines, as are the XP and Vista themes, so it's only Windows 8/8.1 that are affected with what is, with all due respect, a minor cosmetic difference that ultimately comes down to personal opinion.

It's also worth noting that Microsoft mainstream support for Windows 8 and 8.1 both ended on January 9th of this year. Extended support will continue (security issues, bugs reported by those that have paid for extended support) through to 2023, so we will continue to maintain platform compatibility until then and as much as we reasonably can afterwards, but again we certainly won't invest in cosmetic changes for an operating system that essentially amounts to a discontinued, low market-share OS.

Thanks,
If posting files to this forum, you must archive the files to a ZIP, RAR or 7z file or they will not be uploaded.
Thank you.

Best regards

Will Travaglini
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http://www.tracker-software.com

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by avada » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:29 am

Will - Tracker Supp wrote:I'm initially inclined to agree with you, but would like to play around with that a bit. Can you export you settings and either upload them here (Edit --> Export Settings) wrapped in a ZIP folder, or email them to support@tracker-software.com with a link back to this topic, for reference. By using your settings, we'll be able to get a proper feel for what you're trying to achieve and advise, or add feature requests, accordingly.
I just told you how to do it. It would take 5 seconds. Why do you make me jump through pointless hoops?
Anyway, here's an example with the stuff removed that I mentioned, and the wacky remnant of the menubar:
Settings.7z
(11.21 KiB) Downloaded 27 times
Will - Tracker Supp wrote: Given how small the market share, and how large a task it would be to perform such a cosmetic refactoring (while also adding little to no financial incentive for us to spend the money on), it's just not going to happen. The Windows 7 theme is kept on Windows 7 machines, as are the XP and Vista themes, so it's only Windows 8/8.1 that are affected with what is, with all due respect, a minor cosmetic difference that ultimately comes down to personal opinion.
So you wouldn't move a finger for it to appear decently on win8, but you went out of your way to remove the theme just for windows 8 from earlier versions...

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:54 am

Hi avada,

Firstly, I would like to start here by reiterating what Patrick has said: your overall tone on this thread is not the way to go about requesting changes or getting help, and are entirely unappreciated and unwarranted. Requests are just that: requests. We make no guarantees for feature requests, EVER, irrespective of their content or value to users. We do, however, try our best to accommodate user requests when they make sense and add value because we understand that user feedback is what primarily drives the development of good software. But approaching us, or any other software manufacturer/vendor for that matter, in such a confrontational manner is unlikely to yield any fruitful results: I would wager that if you approached Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, etc. in this manner, you would not have gotten a response at all, let alone any consideration on your requests.
I just told you how to do it. It would take 5 seconds. Why do you make me jump through pointless hoops?
Because we have a large number of users and tests to perform for people other than yourself. Users have to help us help them and requiring us to take pointless actions such as attempting to mimic your exact configuration has impact on the support that we need and want to deliver to others. It's not a long process for you to export and upload your settings. It is a long process for us to attempt to mimic them via the few screen-shots we have. Again, your issue is cosmetic and non-critical, so it's definitely not a priority for us right now when compared to other clients. Please do try to consider the fact that the testing we perform daily goes well beyond what you see from our emails and forum posts, some of which are lengthy (e.g. setting up VM's, remote sessions for clients with actual critical issues) and with some ~500 million users and only 8/9 support staff (and I'm only back temporarily), I wholeheartedly believe that we do a darn good job of it.
Anyway, here's an example with the stuff removed that I mentioned, and the wacky remnant of the menubar:
Thank you, I will test with them when I'm able.
So you wouldn't move a finger for it to appear decently on win8, but you went out of your way to remove the theme just for windows 8 from earlier versions...
This was done for a number of reasons, some of which I'm not necessarily privy to and go beyond the surface cosmetics. It's likely easier to maintain and has a relatively low impact on our user-base; the fact that yours is the only complaint we've received lends credence to that.

Bear in mind that aesthetics are subjective. We've had numerous emails and posts stating the users of multiple versions of Window (including Windows 8/8.1) that they love the new UI, and only this post to say otherwise. We have to balance the needs and desires of the few vs those of the many and in this regard, the many have spoken. Unless there is a good reason or lot of call to do so, this will not change.
If posting files to this forum, you must archive the files to a ZIP, RAR or 7z file or they will not be uploaded.
Thank you.

Best regards

Will Travaglini
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Tracker Software Products Ltd.
http://www.tracker-software.com

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by avada » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:14 pm

Will - Tracker Supp wrote: I would wager that if you approached Microsoft, Apple, Adobe, etc. in this manner, you would not have gotten a response at all, let alone any consideration on your requests.
Those sort of horrid giants don't respond no matter how you approach them.
Will - Tracker Supp wrote:not the way to go about requesting changes or getting help, and are entirely unappreciated and unwarranted.
I was just as much reporting glitches/bugs/problems as well as complaining. Complaining you should expect when you make your software in some regards less than it was.

Negative feedback is also feedback.

Ultimiately, while the tools in the titlebar cold be useful ultimately it brings more disadvantages to me. It's unadjustably thicker. The differing window buttons make it more likely for me to mis-click, and take longer to hit. Moving everything there is not really useful because they'd be cluttered on two sides because of the window title. Ultimately the V6 line is more practical.

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by Patrick-Tracker Supp » Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:53 pm

Hello Avada,

We appreciate the feedback, and your words have been heard and considered. We hope to add some improvements in builds to come with regards to the toolbar buttons and drop down arrows. I have also added a separate request for the centering of the title when tools are added to the title bar.
Ultimately the V6 line is more practical.
In the meantime, you may download version 6 here: http://www.docu-track.co.uk/builds/6.0. ... DFXVE6.zip

Sincerely,
If posting files to this forum, you must archive the files to a ZIP, RAR or 7z file or they will not be uploaded.
Thank you.

Cheers,

Patrick Charest
Tracker Support North America

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by avada » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:51 pm

Patrick-Tracker Supp wrote:Hello Avada,

We appreciate the feedback, and your words have been heard and considered. We hope to add some improvements in builds to come with regards to the toolbar buttons and drop down arrows. I have also added a separate request for the centering of the title when tools are added to the title bar.
Ultimately the V6 line is more practical.
In the meantime, you may download version 6 here: http://www.docu-track.co.uk/builds/6.0. ... DFXVE6.zip

Sincerely,
Cool. Thanks.

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Re: Better customizability and a native look for the titlerbar

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:40 pm

:D

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