Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

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avada
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Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by avada »

Hi!

I've lost user configuration three times in the last couple of weeks. The default layout greeted me today yet again.
Granted I've been using the the program more than usually, but it's still horrible.

Probably all of them happened after a normal system shutdown. In which case, of course I don't exit programs one-by-one. But programs don't usually fail this hard, or at all by the process.
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Tracker Supp-Stefan
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan »

Hello avada,

Sorry to hear that this has happened to you.
Can you please check and confirm which build of the Editor is currently installed on your end (Help -> About)?

Also - do you have any registry cleaning tools that may be starting with the PC (or maybe performing their 'tasks' at shutdown?) - could these be having an effect?

The third option is if you are on a machine that is managed by a system administrator - and they have some tool that forces your user account to be reset to some default state from time to time?

Kind regards,
Stefan
avada
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by avada »

Tracker Supp-Stefan wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 9:51 am Hello avada,

Sorry to hear that this has happened to you.
Can you please check and confirm which build of the Editor is currently installed on your end (Help -> About)?

Also - do you have any registry cleaning tools that may be starting with the PC (or maybe performing their 'tasks' at shutdown?) - could these be having an effect?

The third option is if you are on a machine that is managed by a system administrator - and they have some tool that forces your user account to be reset to some default state from time to time?

Kind regards,
Stefan
Right now build 368.0. Come to think of it I recently upgraded from an older build (359.0). So It might be that it got bugged in the meanwhile.

I did have this issue before but it was a long time ago, a year or years. But I don't remember whether it was spontaneous like now or caused by something like running out of space.

I don't have any such cleaning features. And the system is definitely not reset. Also registry stuff shouldn't even effect PDF-XE because the config is stored in files and it runs in portable mode. (Ironically mainly to keep the config safe and easy to move, back up)
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan »

Hello avada,

I was not aware you are using a portable copy of the Editor.
If you have installed a stand alone version on a newer machine - it WILL use the registry even if you supply the settings.dat file - so that's why your settings might have reset.

Kind regards,
Stefan
avada
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by avada »

Tracker Supp-Stefan wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:32 am Hello avada,

I was not aware you are using a portable copy of the Editor.
If you have installed a stand alone version on a newer machine - it WILL use the registry even if you supply the settings.dat file - so that's why your settings might have reset.

Kind regards,
Stefan
It is not the case. The program merely fails to save the settings properly for some reason. Apparently it happens when the exit is triggered by a windows shutdown.

While I have no standard installation, I highly doubt that a portable instance would reset if there was one present. (I think I had that sort of setup a good while ago) A "portable.dat" file is what the app looks for to start as portable, after that it shouldn't have anything to do with the registry.
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, avada

You are correct that so long as a portable.dat file is present, any settings we would try to write to the registry would be re-routed to that dat file. With that said, you specifically state:
avada wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 2:15 pm Apparently it happens when the exit is triggered by a windows shutdown
This is expected, and there is nothing we can do to prevent you from losing settings if you are not closing the application properly. To ensure that your settings are saved, please do ensure that you save any open files, and then close the editor manually (as it good practice with any application). We only write our settings to the registry or *.dat file during a successful close operation, as windows restarting force closes the app, we cannot perform that operation.

Kind regards,
Dan McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by avada »

TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 2:58 pm Hello, avada

You are correct that so long as a portable.dat file is present, any settings we would try to write to the registry would be re-routed to that dat file. With that said, you specifically state:
avada wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 2:15 pm Apparently it happens when the exit is triggered by a windows shutdown
This is expected, and there is nothing we can do to prevent you from losing settings if you are not closing the application properly. To ensure that your settings are saved, please do ensure that you save any open files, and then close the editor manually (as it good practice with any application). We only write our settings to the registry or *.dat file during a successful close operation, as windows restarting force closes the app, we cannot perform that operation.

Kind regards,
I highly disagree. It's not only not expected, it's highly abnormal. Windows shutdown doesn't force close apps, it shutdown even hangs when some apps fail to close, such as text/document editors asking to save file. Total Commander doesn't close when a temporary file is opened in its viewer.
And besides on my system PDFXE has ample amounts of time to shutdown, since QBittorrent takes a long time to close, Windows is always showing that it's waiting for it to close.

Furthermore. PDFXE itself didn't have such issues. Apart from the last few weeks I don't remember how long ago was a loss of configuration event.

Also IMO it's good practice to overwrite files in such a way that can't result in data loss, copy/rename the original and then write, if it fails, fall back.
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, avada
avada wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:57 pm it shutdown even hangs when some apps fail to close, such as text/document editors asking to save file
You may have noticed that in very many cases, when you "cancel" the shutdown to go and manually close/save those files, they often disappear on their own by the time you can locate them, because windows does not provide applications with a kind "please shut down" message like you might expect. It commands the app to shut down, and if it cannot do so in a certain (seemingly inconsistent) timeframe (usually about 30 seconds to a few minutes, though in my experience sometimes under 10 seconds) it will try to force close the app without saving files, instead. In some rare cases, applications can be very stubborn and result in windows not closing for 10+ minutes, but that is a rare situation these days, most usually brought about by the app in question hanging in a way that prevents it from responding to the shutdown prompt, instead of having a simple action like "would you like to save" open.

Now I should note that the fact that you did not lose settings in the recent past may simply be due to you having properly saved all open files (meaning we can close without prompt when windows requests it) and other apps slowing down the shutdown action enough that windows does not decide to force close our Editor before that can happen. It is certainly possible for us to write these settings when windows is performing the shut down, but it is not a feature you should rely on, instead it is a convenient side effect of other situations.
Despite the possibility in favorable conditions, this is still something that we do expect with our software, and this is why we always advise that you properly close the application if you wish for your settings to be recorded. Windows Shutdown is not a reliable way to "properly" close applications, especially those which may have open files that need saving.
avada wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 6:57 pm Also IMO it's good practice to overwrite files in such a way that can't result in data loss, copy/rename the original and then write, if it fails, fall back.
This is already what we do, and it is in part why you see your settings missing from time to time. We record all settings changes in temporary/volatile location, and then write them to the default location when the application is closing properly. The reason we only write settings to the registry (or dat file) when saving is to reduce the number of changes we have to make in these locations, and we ensure that we are only writing to the original locations when you are performing a very simple action that we know will almost never result in a failure of any sort, closing the app.

in brief, "writing of settings" is not "super insecure", it is done in very much the factory standard way, and is about as secure as it can be. "Unreliable for your use-case" would be a more accurate way of phrasing this, but it is not "insecure".

Kind regards,
Dan McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

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avada
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by avada »

Okay then, I'm downgrading.
Kind of sad when one takes time to report an issue, but the only reaction is explaining it away.
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by Paul - Tracker Supp »

Hi, avada

I do not see how a downgrade will help unfortunately. The same behaviour will be apparent.

I discussed this with the development team and they have agreed to look into it. We already do try and save the settings when Windows sends us the close command. If you leave modified documents open and unsaved then this will change things if the prompt to save changes is not responded to, that will pull the rug from under us and the settings will not be saved.

We are tweaking this for version 10. If, after version 10 is released you continue to experience the issue we will investigate.

I must reiterate however that leaving a modified and unsaved document open then shutting down Windows without saving is guaranteed to fail to save settings.

If it continues in V10 will you work with us - potentially installing a debug version or other to get to the bottom of this?


Kind regards,
Paul - Tracker Supp
Best regards

Paul O'Rorke
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avada
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by avada »

Paul - Tracker Supp wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 10:44 pm Hi, avada

I do not see how a downgrade will help unfortunately. The same behaviour will be apparent.

I discussed this with the development team and they have agreed to look into it. We already do try and save the settings when Windows sends us the close command. If you leave modified documents open and unsaved then this will change things if the prompt to save changes is not responded to, that will pull the rug from under us and the settings will not be saved.

We are tweaking this for version 10. If, after version 10 is released you continue to experience the issue we will investigate.

I must reiterate however that leaving a modified and unsaved document open then shutting down Windows without saving is guaranteed to fail to save settings.

If it continues in V10 will you work with us - potentially installing a debug version or other to get to the bottom of this?


Kind regards,
Paul - Tracker Supp
Well, as it looks like the problem wasn't present with 9.2 so it should work as it did before. I also noticed that parallel to the main configuration sometimes getting lost, history isn't updated at all.
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by Paul - Tracker Supp »

Hi, avada

yes changes were made, it is supposed to be saving the settings when Windows sends the shutdown signal, unless there are unsaved changes and you do not respond to the prompt, that changes things.

I believe V10 will work for you again.

Kind regards,
Paul - Tracker Supp
Best regards

Paul O'Rorke
Tracker Support North America
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avada
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by avada »

Well, it has gotten better, but it still happens. 2-3 times since last time I wrote here, but that's still a lot worse than it used to be. And the loss of all of my settings is still annoying.

I think a safe write approach is merited, making the original file a backup in case of write failure.
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by Paul - Tracker Supp »

Hi, avada

we do not have this being reported widely. I want to understand your case better. If I understand things, it is caused because you do not close the Editor when you are done, instead leaving unsaved changes and are expecting the Editor to close "gracefully" and save the changes when Windows shuts down.

While we do the best we can to ensure settings are written, with the best will in the world, you are asking for trouble by working this way. It should save if Windows sends us the right shutdown message, but if you have things that would require an answer like "Do you want to save changes to this document" and you are not there to say yes, a Windows restart will eventually ignore it and shutdown without triggering a graceful close of the Editor.

We will be more than happy to investigate what is happening on your device, and in order to do so we need things to be reproducible on demand. As I understand it you are not clear on exactly when and why it happens? At least you cannot force the event at will?

Or am I wrong and you can reliably reproduce the behaviour to show our devs? In which case we should arrange a remote session.

Kind regards,
Paul - Tracker Supp
Best regards

Paul O'Rorke
Tracker Support North America
http://www.tracker-software.com
avada
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by avada »

Paul - Tracker Supp wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:03 pm
we do not have this being reported widely. I want to understand your case better. If I understand things, it is caused because you do not close the Editor when you are done, instead leaving unsaved changes and are expecting the Editor to close "gracefully" and save the changes when Windows shuts down.

While we do the best we can to ensure settings are written, with the best will in the world, you are asking for trouble by working this way. It should save if Windows sends us the right shutdown message, but if you have things that would require an answer like "Do you want to save changes to this document" and you are not there to say yes, a Windows restart will eventually ignore it and shutdown without triggering a graceful close of the Editor.
(It seems like no e-mail notifications were sent by the forum for a long while, I only got one since last june just now)

In my opinion it's normal to rely on the OS to send the close signal (or whatever it is) to software. And the wast majority of software don't have problems with it. Some delay shutdown for a long while, some actually block it with a save prompt (which is often annoying) or such.
I have not noticed the "eventually ignore part" the shutdown process is halted for minutes.


Paul - Tracker Supp wrote: Mon Oct 30, 2023 10:03 pm We will be more than happy to investigate what is happening on your device, and in order to do so we need things to be reproducible on demand. As I understand it you are not clear on exactly when and why it happens? At least you cannot force the event at will?

Or am I wrong and you can reliably reproduce the behaviour to show our devs? In which case we should arrange a remote session.
No, it doesn't happen often or on demand. I don't remember having a save pdf prompt ever appearing on shutdown, but it's a possibility.
Sometimes I do make changes accidentally, because there's no switch disable/enable edit features. (which I think is a lacking feature, I'd prefer the files to be in view only mode by default)

But in any way. The configuration should be written immediately, and safely. Independently to a pending modified PDF.
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Re: Writing of settings is super insecure. Settings are lost frequently

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, avada

You may need to check your account notification settings, I have been getting email notifications for months, both individual "you were quoted" emails, and weekly digests of changes on the forums which I have configured my account to recieve. All of which is coming from the same server/address as it does to any forum user.

In any case, at this time, our handling will not be changing for the foreseeable future, the system we have in place today works perfectly fine when the software is used properly. I have previously explained why we do not write the settings to the registry every single time any change is made, and why we commit such changes to a temporary file in the interim.

Kind regards,
Dan McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

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Our Web site domain and email address has changed as of 26/10/2023.
https://www.pdf-xchange.com
Support@pdf-xchange.com
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