Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

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arte
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Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by arte »

In Viewer, PDF files larger than 200x200 inches (14400x14400 points) are displayed completely and correctly.

However, in Editor only the last 200 inches are displayed, so the first part of the document can not be edited.

It would be useful if Editor could display and handle correctly such files as well, if not by default, then as a selectable option.
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TrackerSupp-Daniel
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hi, arte

The 200x200 inches limitation is something that has been a part of PDF for a very long time, and is not exclusive to us. The reason the Viewer is able to view and manipulate beyond these constraints is becuase it was ahead of its time, and as such we had not encountered the possible issues related to that during its lifetime.

Since the Viewer we have learned that manipulating files which are not PDF specification version 2.0 (most files even now conform to 1.7 or lower) can lead to some issues in the file as these formats do not officially support such large sizes inherently as part of the Specification.

With the PDF 2.0 specification it is now possible, for certain very specific files that conform to that version of the specification, to go beyond that [200x200 inch] limit without damaging the file. However, do note that any file which does this may not play well with software that does not yet understand the 2.0 specification.

Due to this, we have currently disabled the ability to view and manipulate content beyond these bounds, specifically to prevent these issues from arising. If you need more space in a file, you can simply scale the content down so that it does not surpass the 200x200 inch limit currently in place while editing. As you can zoom in to extreme levels with PDF, this workaround should not pose any issues with viewing or editing the document.

When more of our competitors offer and also support the 2.0 specification to go with that, we plan on releasing this limitation, and I have prompted our Dev team to consider doing this early now that some of our competitors are on their way to doing so, but I cannot make any promises for a timeline on this.

Kind regards,
Daniel McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

Support: <Support@tracker-software.com>
arte
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by arte »

Hello Tracker-Software,

Any news regarding this topic ?

Have tested with Editor v9.3.360.0 and the limitation is still in place.

For that workaround did you mean to scale the content down and later scale it back ?

I haven't found a way to scale down an existing large document and edit all of it's content.


Thumbs up for creating software (like Viewer) that is ahead of its time.

Even now the latest Adobe Reader doesn't have the mentioned capability.
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TrackerSupp-Daniel
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, arte

No changes have been made in this vein yet, and it will likely be some time yet before they are. Unfortuantely this is one area where we need to account for the limitations of our competitors, as creating/manipulating files beyond this size can lead to issues with anyone who is not using a similarly capable software. We do our best to ensure that PDF files we create are fully compatible with any capable PDF software, and so making a change like this now, would be going directly opposite of that intent. In time, it will happen, but it will not likely be any time in the very near future. Perhaps in a few more years.

Kind regards,
Daniel McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

Support: <Support@tracker-software.com>
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PHK
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by PHK »

The Resize Pages function can be your best friend in coping with this size constraint. Downsize a page using any one of the optional ways (I usually prefer the simple percentage mode, scaling the content according to page size). This, miraculously, does nothing to the content of the PDF page. You can then simply zoom down to the workable content and edit away. When you are finished, you can reverse the resize and you are back to the size you have started with but it is now edited. For instance, you can resize down to 10% of the original, edit, and then resize back up to 1000% and no one will be the wiser. This ability obviates the need to get industry consensus for expanding canvas dimension constraints.
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Paul - Tracker Supp
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by Paul - Tracker Supp »

Good point PHK.

And a great work around for the limitations in the Specs!

Nice one.
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Paul O'Rorke
Tracker Support North America
http://www.tracker-software.com
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PHK
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by PHK »

Paul - Tracker Supp wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:02 pm Good point PHK.

And a great work around for the limitations in the Specs!

Nice one.
Thanks, Paul. But it really was your colleague Daniel who pointed this out on the forum a few months ago.

In thinking about the Merge Pages size constraints, it is useful to remember that there are two different constraints and that they operate slightly differently but both can be "worked around."

The page count limits, vertical and horizontal, can be user defined to a maximum of 99. But the work-around for that is to do repeat merges. If the page merge exceeds those limits, the overflow will be the basis for additional pages. But then those pages can be merged. But it is better to take more control of the merge process and adopt a thoughtful approach to exactly how you want the merge to look and plan accordingly.

The page physical size and be managed as discussed above.

But perhaps the most important constraint cannot be addressed in the context of software: computing power. That is, the size of a useful page is limited by the capacities of the computer to display the page and allow the user to navigate and edit the page. I do not know enough about computer and graphics cards to discuss this but I find that single pages composed of more than about 1,000 source pages can slow things down tremendously. There probably are processing upgrades for my computer that would help on this but I wouldn't know where to start.
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TrackerSupp-Daniel
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, PHK

Thankfully, the physical hardware limit will not likely be stuck on the graphics card. Perhaps the main processor for your PC, but the graphics card is highly unlikely ever be the bottleneck, unless perhaps you have documents with numerous active 3d objects in place.
The most likely limits you could hit using our software will be the RAM requirements (if your PC has less than 6gb of ram, it is possible that, with windows itself and other background apps running, the Editor may hit a bottleneck there. Alternatively, the processor, once again, if you are using an older (I3 era and prior) processor, you are more likely to encounter some bottlenecking in daily use with most apps, including our editor, if you have numerous background applications running. If you have a more modern processor, (i5 and up) you should typically be fine on this front unless you are performing particularly advanced tasks, such as using PDF tools to process and merge the pages of hundreds of documents at once.

Kind regards,
Daniel McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

Support: <Support@tracker-software.com>
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PHK
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by PHK »

Thanks, Daniel. My main PC is a year old with an i7 processor. I am away from base right now working on my laptop so I cannot get to specific. I paid a lot for the PC -- not a basic unit -- so I would not be surprised if there is some unlocked potential that I am not accessing. When I get home, I may try to send you the specs on my set-up for your observations, if I may.

I am not running much in the background typically and I make a conscious effort to keep the system lean if I am working on something huge in PDF-XCE.

All best,

PHK
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TrackerSupp-Daniel
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, PHK

No need to share the specifics, there is not much i will be able to do with the information beyond say "yup that makes sense" or "huh, i think it should run a bit better with that". In any case, the above was mostly a generalized rule for typical use cases of the software, you example of having a 1000 pages compressed to a single page is a bit beyond typical use, do remember that when you merge pages, each individual object is placed on that new page, and likewise, when viewing that page, each of those items is rendered individually.

This means that, no matter how powerful your PC, if you are trying to simultaneously render 1.5million individual letters which consist of numerous vector positions (and may each have their own separate container objects as well), load from disk 780 high resolution pictures, and a series of fancy formatting "shapes" like page borders all in the bounds of a single page, even when zoomed out and most of it is illegible, it is expected to see some stuttering while everything pops in.

The message I was trying to convey is that, the GPU shouldn't be the limit, as it is very rarely used at all by our software, it is far more likely to be the CPU or RAM of your machine that cause our editor to stutter or lock-up, respectively.

As a rule of thumb, If your document pages are ocmplex, image heavy, or have a large amount of individual objects/text items, I would avoid putting too many on a single page. If there start to be delays with the software when viewing the page, that is a sign you are putting too many things together in one spot, and you may want to quarter that page (EG: aim for 250 each, instead of 1000).

Kind regards,
Daniel McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

Support: <Support@tracker-software.com>
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PHK
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by PHK »

TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:51 pm ... you example of having a 1000 pages compressed to a single page is a bit beyond typical use, do remember that when you merge pages, each individual object is placed on that new page, and likewise, when viewing that page, each of those items is rendered individually. This means that, no matter how powerful your PC, if you are trying to simultaneously render 1.5million individual letters which consist of numerous vector positions (and may each have their own separate container objects as well), load from disk 780 high resolution pictures, and a series of fancy formatting "shapes" like page borders all in the bounds of a single page, even when zoomed out and most of it is illegible, it is expected to see some stuttering while everything pops in.
Yes, I fully get that and I am still awed and amazed that it is what is happening. It is not unreasonable for the rendering to be slowed down in view of the demands imposed on the processors.
TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:51 pm The message I was trying to convey is that, the GPU shouldn't be the limit, as it is very rarely used at all by our software, it is far more likely to be the CPU or RAM of your machine that cause our editor to stutter or lock-up, respectively.
Got that.
TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 10:51 pm As a rule of thumb, If your document pages are ocmplex, image heavy, or have a large amount of individual objects/text items, I would avoid putting too many on a single page. If there start to be delays with the software when viewing the page, that is a sign you are putting too many things together in one spot, and you may want to quarter that page (EG: aim for 250 each, instead of 1000)....
Yeah, I get that, too. It is just a matter of tradeoffs. In many cases, I am creating these single-page archive files for very limited and occasional access and certainly not for distribution. I am happy to suffer the slow rendering on the rare occasion of looking at the page against the benefit of having a lot of data/history all in one place. That may be an extreme use of the Merge Pages function but it distinctly serves my purposes. Certainly, in day-to-day, minute-to-minute usage these huge pages are not practical and I am not advocating that.

All best,

PHK
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TrackerSupp-Daniel
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Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

:)
Daniel McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

Support: <Support@tracker-software.com>
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PHK
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Re: Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by PHK »

PHK wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:41 pm... In many cases, I am creating these single-page archive files for very limited and occasional access and certainly not for distribution. I am happy to suffer the slow rendering on the rare occasion of looking at the page against the benefit of having a lot of data/history all in one place. That may be an extreme use of the Merge Pages function but it distinctly serves my purposes. Certainly, in day-to-day, minute-to-minute usage these huge pages are not practical and I am not advocating that.

All best,

PHK
I continue to experiment with large single-sheet PDFs that are assemblages of legacy papers sizes (A4 and Letter) which I hate and kept bumping up against the slow rendering or freezes which seem to be a function of my graphics card capacities. It is a high-end gamers graphic card which makes it that much more frustrating.

However, I have just gone into my computer settings and changed the graphics card preferences away from the default power-saving mode (completely irrelevant to my plugged-in use) to "high performance". This has noticably changed rendering speed. I don't know why I didn't think of this before, perhaps a reflection of my low nerd-quotient. I just thought I would pass this on if anyone is interested.
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TrackerSupp-Daniel
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Editing PDF files larger than 200x200 inches

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

:)
Daniel McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

Support: <Support@tracker-software.com>
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