3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

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RA1981
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3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:14 pm

Hi,

recently I realized that PDF-XChange Editor now is capable of displaying 3D PDFs. This is a feature which would make me buy the toolset (currently using the free version). Now, I tried to open 3D PDFs generated from a tool I'm using on work, but PDF-XChange Editor simply crashes when allowing to display the content. Already tried to switch the renderer in settings => multimedia 3D, makes no difference. Working on Win7 64-bit and latest PDF-XChange Editor version.

The 3D PDFs can be opened without issues in Acrobat Reader DC. Now, how to figure out who's the "bad guy", the tool generating the 3D PDFs or PDF-XChange Editor because it's a fairly new feature?

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:21 pm

Hello RA1981,

Thank you for the report, Note that Currently the Editor only supports U3D content, If the File is generated in PRC content type is should display (without crashing) but 3D will be disabled. Could I ask you to send a copy of the documents in question to us here? If they contain sensitive information, please send an email to Support@tracker-software.com with a link to this thread.

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RA1981
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:28 pm

Hi Daniel,

thank you for the quick reply. I'll try to create a non-sensitive example file and provide it here, so other users can verify the behaviour. This way we can see if it's related to the machine on which the file should be opened or if it's a problem in general. If it's not possible to provide a non-sensitive example, I'll proceed as suggested by you.

Regards

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TrackerSupp-Daniel
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:37 pm

Looking forward to it. :D
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RA1981
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:10 pm

Hi Daniel,

I managed to create a non-sensitive example. As far as I can see the format is U3D.

I verified that it shows the same behaviour and I also tried it on a 2nd machine, same result. I attached the example file and a picture how it looks like on Acrobat DC.
For clarification, the model shows a printed circuit board (without components, I thought that maybe a component model causes the crash), which also should have inner structures (electrical layers).

Regards
Attachments
PCB-3D.pdf
example file
(69.96 KiB) Downloaded 51 times
PCB-3D.jpg
same file in Acrobat DC

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:26 pm

Hello RA1981,

Thank you for the file, The Development team is now investigating what can be done on this front. They have assured me that the crash is already resolved for the upcoming build (328), but it appears that the model itself is actually corrupted. As such they are currently investigating methods for displaying the model despite that. I cannot guarantee that the model will be fully useable in this new build, but at the very least the document will no longer crash the Editor upon opening.

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RA1981
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:36 pm

Hi Daniel,

sounds good. Maybe the development team has the possibility to check which part of the model is corrupted and can provide this information. So I can visually check in Acrobat DC if can see the error (I only did a short visual check and it looked okay) and clarify with the tool vendor what's going wrong from their side.

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by Ivan - Tracker Software » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:08 am

For now, we found the following issues with the U3D stream in your file:
1. "File size" field in File Header has value zero, while it should contain the actual number of bytes in the stream (section 9.4.1.4 of U3D spec)
2. Parent node data (9.5.1.2 in the U3D spec) for top-level group nodes does not contain parent information (Parent Node Count is zero).
3. At the end of the data stream, there is an extra space filled by zero bytes. It is not critical, but causes parser to handle wrong block types.

Unfortunately, it is not the final list of issue, but adding workarounds for these issues allows us to render the file in some way, as you can see on the screenshot:
corrupted_u3d.png
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:32 pm

Hi Daniel & Ivan,

thank you for the first identified errors. I forwarded them to the tool vendor along with the example file, so that they can look on their side what's going wrong. I'll keep you informed about it. If there are more details which I should forward to the tool vendor, I'll do so. I also checked if there's a way to get something like an error log on Acrobat DC, but it seems it's not possible. Glad that you're implementing workarounds for this :)

So, in the meantime, it seems that it's time for me to take a closer look at the features of the different XChange Editor versions and buy one in the near future.

Thanks a lot for your help.

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:39 pm

No trouble at all RA1981,

If any more surfaces we will certainly let you know. Could I ask what the software you have used is called, to verify and so that if necessary we can reach out to the creators directly?

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RA1981
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:08 pm

Hi Daniel,

the software is called Altium Designer: www.altium.com
We're using the latest version. It's a software for designing electronic circuit boards. So, if you have any questions about the 3D model structure and the object tree from user sight, don't hesitate to ask.

A real-world design would also have electronic components on the board. There are a few options provided for generating the 3D PDF, I can provide them if needed. There are options like "merge mesh", so that the whole assembly is exported as a single model or the board and components are exported as multiple models, etc.
If you want, I can also check if I'm allowed to provide another example file with components on the board.

I have also two questions, but not directly related to the initial issue:
1) do you plan to give the possibility to export the contents of a 3D PDF to other 3D formats (e.g. STEP, OBJ, etc.)?
2) If I buy PDF XChange for private usage, am I allowed to use the license also at work or do I have to order a separate license?

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by Ivan - Tracker Software » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:21 pm

Thanks for the information. If you have more PDFs with 3D generated by this tool, we would appreciate if you can share.

In regards other formats - PDF can contain 3D streams in U3D or PRC format. And now PDF Association is in the middle of a discussion to add support for STEP format.
The Editor supports only U3D for now and we are working on PRC support.
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:29 pm

Hello RA1981,

For the questions,
1) Currently we do not offer any 3D export options, I cannot say it will not come in the future, but I have not heard any word of those possibilities coming anytime soon. As Ivan said above, PRC is next, and STEP format is later in the pipeline.
2) You are entitled to two installation on a personal primary and personal secondary device. This means that so long as your Work PC is setup in a way that only you can access the Editor and its licensed features (including the printers), there should be no problem.

Have an excellent day!
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RA1981
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:03 pm

Hi Daniel & Ivan,

thank you for clarifying. Looking forward to further 3D formats. I'll provide further example files soon.

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:59 am

:D

RA1981
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:02 pm

Hi Daniel,

I got an answer from Altium support: they said that they integrated 3D PDF in cooperation with Adobe PDF and other readers are not supported. This is dissapointing. If the implementation is correct on both sides according to specification, it shouldn't make a difference which reader is used. Maybe Tracker software will have more luck when contacting them. I'm fascinated about the quick reply from your development team :D

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:25 pm

Thank you for the update RA1981.

We will keep looking into this and working on new solutions.

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:48 pm

Hi Daniel, Ivan,

sorry for the delay. I sent a PDF with a few electronic components on both sides of the PCB to Support@tracker-software.com as suggested by you. I hope this file is helpful.

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by Paul - Tracker Supp » Thu Dec 06, 2018 4:52 pm

Thanks Ralf

I have forwarded the email on to Ivan.
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RA1981
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:27 pm

Hi Daniel, Ivan,

I'm just curious if you had success in contacting Altium about this.

In the meantime, I had several 3D PDFs generated and I want to give an update of the behaviour on my work PC, using the latest release:
1) The 3D file is only working when DirectX9 mode is selected - using OpenGL mode makes XChange Editor going into an endless loop, non responsive.
2) The displayed model seems to be confused regarding the view, especially when rotating: it looks like that parts which should be behind other parts are drawn before the front parts and vice versa - hard to describe, if needed I might be able to provide screenshots, etc.

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by rolfb » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:02 am

How is the actual status for support of PDF's containing 3D PRC Models and when it will be available ? For the first i would be fine just to be able to view and turn them.

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:33 pm

Hello All,

Apologies for missing this RA1981, I am unsure about the status of speaking with them about his. I believe that Ivan has had some contact with them, but he is sick today so I cannot speak for the progress of those talks. regarding the issues you described there, can you verify that they are still present in build 328.2? if the issue is present in the latest build, please send us some screenshots of the issue and a copy of the original document.

rolfb,
I am afraid that currently there is no set timeline on PRC support. It is the next format we plan to cover, but we are more focused on resolving existing issues with U3D beforehand.

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RA1981
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:01 am

Hello Daniel,

sorry for the delay. I sent the requested files via email. The screenshot from PDF XChange Editor has been taken from V328.2.

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:50 pm

Thank you for sending those, I see the issue and have passed it along to the Dev team for investigation.
While I cannot give any guarantees, I hope we can find a swift resolution for you.

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:12 pm

Hi Dan,

no problem, glad that I can help ;)

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:38 pm

:D
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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Fri May 17, 2019 7:00 pm

Hi Daniel,

any news? :wink:

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Fri May 17, 2019 7:35 pm

Hello RA1981,

Regarding the files that you sent in the most recent email, OpenGL seems to be working correctly on my end in build 331, and the rotation/view issues you mentioned also do not seem to be present. Can you confirm if these do not work on your end?

Regarding PRC support, I still do not have any news about a release date, however we have made much progress on that front, and it seems to be coming along nicely.

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Fri May 17, 2019 8:15 pm

Hi Daniel,

strange, it seems that I'm not getting any notification about a new available update/build on my PCs. I'll check the behaviour with the new version as soon as I'm back in office.

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by RA1981 » Mon May 20, 2019 6:29 am

Hi Daniel,

I verified build 331, now most of the components are displayed in the correct order. Components which are transparent can still be seen from both sides of the PCB. Do you need a sample file?

Regards

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Re: 3D PDF causes XChange Editor to crash

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Mon May 20, 2019 10:07 am

Hi RA1981,

Thanks for the post - Please do send a sample file, if at all possible. If you don't want to upload here (it's publicly available), please send to support@tracker-software.com with a link back to this topic for reference.

Thanks,
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Thank you.

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