Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

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Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:58 pm

Since a PDF-XChange Editor forum search for "paragraph+justification" (no quotes) returns but a single, non-pertinent message thread, I am beginning an new one here.

At the bottom of the page contained in the attached PDF file, both words "of prior" are italicized. The "of," however, should *not* be italicized, but when I select just those two letters and then change them back to non-italicized form, the line justification of the paragraph is somewhat wrecked.

How can I make this small edit, *without* otherwise changing the page's layout? (BTW, this file is the product of long-ago automated OCR from a paper document, in no-telling-what program, and thus this file is the best I have to work with.)

Thanks! MarkT
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:59 pm

Hello Mark,

This seems to be caused by a change in the font itself, the word of is "Times-italic" which is not a windows default font and is likely not available on your machine.

The short is, the best way to resolve this is to overwrite the font manually to a locally existing font, such as "Times new Roman" which appears nearly the same:
PHQbsGobcC.gif
Then after making that change, you are free to remove the italicization from the word of:
image.png
I hope this helps!
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:37 pm

Thank you, Daniel! You state: "Times-italic" ... is likely not available on your machine.

This inherited machine has available a *boatload* of both TrueType and PostScript fonts, and the PS version of "Times" is showing up in the Font menus of most or all programs that offer such selections.

Strangely enough, though: If, within this file, I first select the *entire* paragraph; change its font to Times New Roman; change the word "of" to non-italicized format; and then re-select Times for the entire paragraph; the justification stays put. Still scratching my head over that; but in any case, you have indeed pinpointed the source of the observed anomaly, and I thank you for that addition to my PDF editing toolbox. It's a miracle of work-around to so-called "smart" technology, I'd say.

MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:55 pm

:lol: Glad I could be of assistance!
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:46 pm

Daniel wrote: Glad I could be of assistance!

Not to beat a dead horse, Daniel, but does PDF-EXchange provide for the adjustment of the *leading* between lines within a given paragraph, page, etc.? When I use the above-described work-around to change the word "of" to non-italicized format, the leading of the lines within that paragraph shrinks noticeably. A search for "leading" at https://help.tracker-software.com/pdfxe8/ seems not to return anything pertinent.

FWIIW, ABBYY Finereader 14 *does* allow this minor change to be made directly, *without* otherwise changing the paragraph's appearance in any way. Go figure....

Thanks! MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:53 pm

Hello Mark,
No worries there, we do offer paragraph options, including Indentation and Spacing settings, If that is what you meant:
image.png
To access these, you can highlight the text with the Edit text tool enabled (or the relevant tool for the content type), and either press Ctrl+H, or right click and choose the "Paragraph..." option.

If these are not what you meant, could you please elaborate a bit on what exactly you were looking for there, as I seem to be misunderstanding the situation.

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:19 pm

Following that, I have also spoken with the Development team further on the original issues, and determined that we should be able to change our handling to recognize issues like this and prevent them from getting worse.

I cannot speak for when exactly this will be resolved, but for tracking purposes, I have created the following ticket:
RT#4896: Text Editing issues in this document

You can ask any member of our support team for updates on this in the future.

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:30 pm

Ah, I have briefly looked at that window during explorations of the program, but to this point had not noticed the "line spacing" part of the "Spacing" category. That will work, thank you!

Meanwhile, strictly in the FWIIW department, my use of the term "leading" - pronounced "ledding" - does tend to tag me as an "old-timer." Sigh.

"The definition of leading is: the distance between two baselines of lines of type. The word 'leading' originates from the strips of lead hand-typesetters used to use to space out lines of text evenly. The word leading has stuck, but essentially it's a typographer's term for line spacing." See also:

What is Leading in Typography? - InDesign Skills - www.indesignskills.com › tutorials › leading-typography

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:35 pm

Daniel: ... I have also spoken with the Development team further on the original issues, and determined that we should be able to change our handling to recognize issues like this and prevent them from getting worse.

I cannot speak for when exactly this will be resolved, but for tracking purposes, I have created the following ticket:
RT#4896: Text Editing issues in this document

--------------

Terrific - thanks! MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:47 am

Hi Mark,

No worries for the ticket! And thanks for the link to the leading definition. Leading is still the technical term (insofar as I'm aware anyway, and I'm 26 :wink: ), but many apps tend to call it spacing to simplify the terms for non-technical users. I'm not sure that they're exactly identical, but it's usually enough for most users.

Cheers,
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Thank you.

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:48 am

Daniel: Leading is still the technical term (insofar as I'm aware anyway, and I'm 26).

It occurs to me that the addition of a short glossary and/or appendix entry for "leading" - returning a search result something like "See Paragraph Options > Line Spacing" - might be appropriate.

Strictly FWIIW.... MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:38 pm

Hello Markt-a1b,

I've just spoken with a colleague in the dev team and he wanted to clarify why this happens:
Problem is with the "Times-Italic" font - italic glyphs are more compact then not italic. So by turning off "italic" - text becomes a little bit wider and cannot fit in the text box. As a workaround you may change the Char Spacing (can be found in the Properties Pane) of some space in line by say -1%.

Regards,
Stefan

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:41 pm

Stefan wrote: ... italic glyphs are more compact than not italic....

Thank you for confirming what I had already suspected, Stefan. I'll test your suggestion, and in the meantime I had already used ABBYY Finereader to successfully un-italicize the errant "of." For some reason Finereader tolerates that minuscule tracking change, without altering the paragraph justification.

In the meantime, though, I have a (perhaps) related question about a rather trivial issue, but since PDF-EXchange Pro seems to be the Swiss Army knife of PDF editing that I've long sought, the file characteristics in question are ones that I would like to know how to tweak.

In the attached file, the horizontal line running between the words "and" and "copies" seems not to be constructed of font characters; but I also am unable to isolate, select or edit it as an image or graphic item. It has to be coming from *somewhere* - so how can I edit it, or else delete it and then replace it with, say, underline characters from a font?

Thanks! MarkT
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:32 pm

Hello Mark,

That underline is a "shape" object, which are independent from Images and text, although still definitely base content, you can select it with the "Edit > all content, or Shapes" tool:
image.png
using this allows you to select said Shape, and modify/rezise/move it as desired:
image.png
image.png (19.56 KiB) Viewed 787 times
I hope this helps!
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:42 pm

Daniel wrote: That underline is a "shape" object....

Well now, ain't *that* just special! <grin> In all my many years of working with PDF files, I never before encountered a need or even a desire to directly manipulate such an animal as this. Now I know.

Thank you for the continuing education, which is *most* appreciated! MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:04 pm

:D
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:39 pm

Since this message thread already contains background information and related file attachments related to "shapes," I will briefly continue it here, rather than start a new one:

Daniel wrote: That underline is a "shape" object....

"Shapes are defined as paths, shading, XForms and all other document base content that is neither text nor imaged-based...."

https://help.tracker-software.com/pdfxe ... +shapes%22

Per the above link, then, am I correct in concluding that shapes are a type of *annotation*?

Are most or all of those red polygon (etc.) objects available within PDF-EXchange's Comment > Drawing menu, *vector* graphics?

Thanks! MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:10 pm

Hello Mark,

close, but not quite.
Shapes, Text, and Images share one thing in common in that they are "Base content" which is distinctly different from annotations. To put it simply, base content can never go in front of Annotations, other than that, there are some technical differences, such as being unable to select base content and annotations simultaneously, but they function essentially the same outside of that from an end user perspective.

Annotations are specifically things like the "text box, Typewriter, rectangle" and such tools, Measurements, count as annotations, and form fields, which in their own category, are sometimes considered annotations as well. Most of the tools found on the Comment tab are specifically for Annotations, and do not affect base content.

Any annotations placed by the Editor use coordinates within the Document itself for necessary points, allowing them to appear crisp at any zoom level, so yes, they would be considered vector objects.
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:10 pm

Daniel wrote: "... *Most* of the tools found on the Comment tab are specifically for Annotations, and do not affect base content...."

Wow, thanks for that *most* informative explanation of those multiple terms, Daniel. So PDF-EXchange is able to *edit* base content shapes, per your illustration above; but just for reference, can it also be used to manually *add* true shape data?

Related to that, if I were to run a scanned (bitmap) image of the provided sample page through PDF-EXchange's OCR facility, would those multiple horizontal lines be rendered into *shapes*?

As stated previously, I have no idea what program was used to create the example PDF file, but it almost certainly was done via a multi-page, automated process - *perhaps* via the ABBYY OCR Engine often used in newspaper/magazine digitization and such.

In any case, thank you for being such a patient professor, Herr Doktor, at Tracker PDF University! MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:48 pm

Hello Mark,

If you have copied a "shape" from another document or application you can paste it into the Editor (it will usually be formatted as a stamp and require "flattening" but after doing that you should find the shape objects as expected within the document.

Scanned documents when processed by the Editor will only ever respect what the Scanner feeds us, If the scanner is capable of splitting it into smaller images for file size reduction, it will do that, and while I have not heard of one capable of such, if a scanner were to convert portions of a document into shape objects, the editor would retain them as such. But to my knowledge there is no scanner which does that currently.

If you alternatively OCR a document, only TEXT content will be generated, never shapes. In the case of this sample document, those lines may be recognized as an "underline" (were there text above them), but otherwise they would likely be left as a background image without any alterations.

Class, Dismissed! :lol:
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:54 pm

Daniel wrote: "If you have copied a 'shape' from another document or application you can paste it into the Editor (it will usually be formatted as a stamp and require 'flattening' but after doing that you should find the shape objects as expected within the document...."
---------------------
In FreeHand 8 under Mac OS 9, I created the attached Banner Books logo. I deliberately "printed" it as a PDF version 1.1 file, and then opened it in EXchange. From there I copied and pasted the entire logo into the attached page iv, resized it, and then used the "Flatten Comments" function on the entire page. Just for curiosity's sake, is there a way to determine within EXchange whether the graphic part of that logo is now a shape, or whether it remains an annotation or comment (or a "stamp")?

As to the underline-like shapes you discuss vis-a-vis the above-referenced sample file, I was able to determine that the scan and OCR of the original printed-to-paper document was done in 2003, using the then-current version of ABBYY FineReader, and so *perhaps* that program is capable of producing shape objects from such input. Otherwise, I have no idea how those became true shapes, as previously pointed out by you. (I will experiment with that program later.)

As an aside, within FreeHand I used "range kerning" to space the letters of the word "BANNER," hoping it would remain a searchable word within the resulting PDF file, but apparently the distillation process honors just the raw spacing of those letters, and not their juxtaposition within a single, cohesive word. Oh well....

In any case, thank you for the continuing education! MarkT
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:53 pm

Hello Markt-a1b,

There is a "content" pane which you can show in the Editor, and there you can see all base content elements of all pages in your file.
In the sample you've given us - the Banner consist of two vector object + the "B A N N E R" text itself - so all of that content is vector based.
vector.png
Regards,
Stefan

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:09 pm

Thanks, Stefan. You wrote: "There is a 'content' pane which you can show in the Editor, and there you can see all base content elements...."

Just to clarify: Once this page has been Flattened, do these "Paths" - as they're designated within the Content pane - become *base* content? (The "Layers" pane, if I am interpreting it correctly, indicates that this file has but a single layer.)

Meanwhile, and still apropos of the original "Paragraph Justification Woes" in the title of this message thread, the top paragraph in the attached PDF test file displays an exasperating and mostly consistent behavior trait of ABBYY Finereader's OCR facility: the last one or two - or sometimes three - lines of fully-justified text paragraphs will end up being ragged (and thus indented) at their right margins, and no amount of finagling seems able to satisfactorily fix the resulting PDF page.

PDF-XChange's Text Properties > Character > Char Spacing feature can move the text toward the right, but of course does so (as advertised) by increasing the spacing between all of the *letters* within the line. Does the program also have an equivalent *Word* Spacing function?

In last three lines of the bottom paragraph of this page, I have applied something of a brute-force work-around: manually adding spaces between words, by trial and error, until the RH sides of those three lines are more or less justified.

Besides re-doing OCR operations within XChange, on a bitmap scan of an original page that I do not possess, is there a better way to accomplish this adjustment within XChange? Thank you, MarkT
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:48 pm

Hello Mark,

That would be correct, they essentially become base content, or they were initially when inside the stamp, and now are separate items.

Layers are a difficult topic. they are considered separate from the usual separation of base content and comments. Simply put the editor can display them if they already exist currently, but there is not much else we can do with them for the moment. To elaborate, while you could consider base content and comments as separate items, both of them can be present on a single "layer". Comments however, will always appear on top of base content, this is true even in documents with multiple layers containing both content types. For example, if layer 3 is visible but has only base content, all of the comments on layers 1-5 will still appear on top of it instead of some being obscured as you might otherwise expect.
If there is nothing listed in the layers pane, then you can consider the document having no layers, as in PDF layers are primarily used for contextual hiding and showing of content, such as having a single pdf that chooses a display language and shows alternate text passages in the respective language for that users application. (again the Editor is not yet capable of applying this, only displaying what already exists, I will unfortunately not be able to provide much more detail on this front)

As for the attached document, It seems that the content in the document again has a number of varying formats in place, all of which conflict with each other when attempting to edit. In this case I found the best method to restore it is to make the changes before beginning to edit the text. IE: select the text field, without clicking into it any further, then using the format tab to modify it all in bulk. Initially:
image.png
After applying a uniform font (times new roman) selecting justify, and applying a fill color:
image.png
It does still have the issue with the paragraph settings in the lower section, but the justification seems to be all right. The final piece of the puzzle is an invisible character after the hyphen in the word different, (also this is a physical hyphen not a dynamic one that would be removed if the line breaks changed you can remove it as well as it poses no benefit as it is). Deleting this invisble character seems to fix the last part of the formatting:
image.png
In the second version of the paragraph, there also seem to be some duplicate spaces between some words, I presume this was your testing paragraph where you did some trial and error with manually adding spaces?

For your other questions, Unfortunately there is no "word spacing" function, and to my knowledge it is not defined in the PDF spec, so it is likely something that we cannot offer either.

Performing OCR in the Editor would indeed be the best method, but without the original files, that is essentially impossible, so the next best alternative I can come up with is the above, manually changing formatting process.

Kind regards,

PS. I noticed as I finished writing this, the "space" characters in the document seem to be oddly large compared to normal, and should probably not be as such. You could manually replace these with normal Spaces to achieve a greater semblance of completion:
image.png
(A quick copy of the text content into notepad, then copied back out will accomplish this with a bit less work than manual removal, in my test for some odd reason the text pasted in bold, but otherwise was excellent)
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:24 pm

Daniel,

Thank you for yet another *most* informative post! That is very much appreciated.

If the developers and marketers of the so-called "competing" (cough!) and *expensive* programs were one-tenth as responsive to user issues and input as Tracker is, then we would not now be discussing these niggling PDF file problems. In any case, after considerable testing using years-long "problem" PDF files, I am now confident that PDF-XChange will heretofore be my primary PDF creation, editing and publishing tool.

Meanwhile, here is the text of a PDF-XChange review that I was requested to submit, by Tracker's own purchase-follow-up robot:

Please let us know what you like/dislike about PDF-XChange PRO.

PDF-XChange Pro is a deep and very capable program, and I am still delving into and learning its multi-faceted user interface and
features. In the meantime, however, it has handily resolved some years-long exasperations with successive releases of Adobe Acrobat Pro
and ABBYY Finereader (and the latter's accompanying OCR Editor). Although I have submitted detailed reports and examples to the
developers of both programs, they remain unresponsive to what amount to significant program bugs.

By contrast, the Tracker Tech Support team, via both e-mail and forum postings, has been *most* helpful in answering questions, and making note of any program features that might benefit from tweaking.

I will hope to be able to report more fully on the program in the future, but for now I am more than pleased with the high value/performance-to-cost ratio provided by the program. MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:41 pm

I am certainly glad that we could be of assistance!

You have an excellent day :D
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:40 pm

Daniel wrote: "... there is no 'word spacing' function, and to my knowledge it is not defined in the PDF spec...."

Then wouldn't there *have* to be a method of adjusting the length of the *space* characters themselves, line by line? Doesn't every mom-pop word processing program, capable of fully justifying text columns, adjust the length of the space characters between words, for each and every line?

In the attached screenshot, compare the shorter length of the space characters in line one, versus the significantly longer ones in line two. Every viewer/editor program in which I open this page does correctly interpret and honor this space-length variation, in order to display the lines properly; which means that *somewhere* within the file, this information is surely, somehow encoded. My hack of manually adding spaces works well enough for a line or two, here and there, but of course if the text is copied and then pasted for use elsewhere, those extra spaces can be a nuisance, at best. Just thinking "out loud"....

Meanwhile, thank you for your informative tutorial on layers, base content and comments - not to mention *paths*! MarkT
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:09 pm

Hello Mark,

Yes, most word processors do this, however the Editor is not a word processor, we attempt to emulate some of the handling as it is more commonplace and understood, however fundamentally we are not the same thing.

justify works on a per line basis, however it does not change the actual size of the Space characters themselves, it forces the line to spread everything apart to balance the appearance. To help with visualization, see the screenshot below where I have disabled "Edit text as blocks":
image.png
This is how a PDF processor actually sees lines of text, and also how it applies the settings that are in place. Each box around the text is a different "object", and as such has its own location and size data along with containing only the text present there. Justify will work within each those predefined areas individually, but not across all of them at once, as they are not actually linked together. Most applications (including ours) choose to treat nearby text boxes as editable "blocks" to maintain a paragraph like semblance, and offer work processor like features such as word wrapping while being edited.
As there is no "word spacing" function that is explicitly defined for PDF use, even if we were to develop a function like this, most other PDF viewers would not understand what it means, and then do one of the following:
1. Throw an error
2. Not open the document at all (declaring it is corrupted)
or 3. Completely ignore the setting, destroying all of you hard work next time anyone presses "save" in their alternate PDF viewing application.

We hold ourselves to a high standard and ensure that all functions we offer fit into the PDF specification, so that all documents we create can be compatible with as many other applications as possible.

Kind regards,
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:33 pm

Daniel wrote: "... justify works on a per line basis, however it does not change the actual size of the Space characters themselves, it forces the line to spread everything apart to balance the appearance...."

I am not quite following you here, Daniel. When you say "everything," above, do you also mean the spacing of the individual *letters* within words, in addition to the distance adjustments made *between* words?

In any case, I am *not* in any way advocating that you violate Grand High Holy Writ of PDF file specifications; rather, that you simply provide an XChange user the ability to adjust whatever it is about the attached, near-identical test files that causes their *already* "justified" last lines to behave so differently. Both, presumably, are "regulation" PDF files, but the ABBYY example contains its usual screwed up last line, with the XChange example being true to the original scanned (bitmap) page of the document.

It certainly would be nice to be able to use XChange to fix this line justification problem - *without* trying to add a few clunky spaces here and there, hit-and-miss.

Does that make sense? Thanks! MarkT
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:57 pm

Hello Mark,

Sorry once again for the confusion, the letter separation should not change with justification, it would only be the distance between words that is regulated, but in a automated manner, not a manual manner.

As for being able to fix these in the Editor, As I mentioned a few posts prior, After having the dev team go over these, they did find that we should be able to do something to rectify this issue when it appears, as it is certainly incorrect. I cannot say when this fix (feature?) will be coming, but it is something that we are looking into.

For now, I am afraid that I cannot offer a good solution to this issue.

Kind regards,
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:36 pm

Daniel: "... As I mentioned a few posts prior, After having the dev team go over these, they did find that we should be able to do something to rectify this issue when it appears, as it is certainly incorrect...."

Ah, sorry about that Daniel! I had interpreted this latest example file submission as being different and apart from the earlier ticket - "RT#4896: Text Editing issues in this document" - and thus sent you these two examples. I will be happy to test any and all Beta versions in the meantime.

Thanks! MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:06 pm

No worries Mark,

We typically do most of our testing in house unless reproducing something reliably is an issue. So it is unlikely we will have a need to send you a test build, but I will keep it in mind just in case.

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by StephenCWLL » Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:10 pm

Hello everyone!

SO PLEASED to read this thread as I've been pulling what little hair I have left out over last few weeks as I find myself extremely troubled by this very issue of extra line spacing gaps when I modify certain letters/words in an existing PDF I'm editing. It's driving me loopy.

My example is shown below as when I italic a word or change font for a few words, line spacing goes up the creek without a paddle.
image.png
I also temporarily downloaded Adobe Acrobat for a week's trial to see if this issue was in the PDF or a PDF-XChange issue. Sadly I had just as many issues in Acrobat; perhaps even more issues but that's because I don't find Acrobat as intuitive as PDF-XChange.

The issue seems to come down to fonts if I read this thread correctly?

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:45 pm

Stephen, I likewise have suffered significant "manual hair loss" with this issue, and am still experimenting with Acrobat XI Pro, PDF-XChange, ABBYY FineReader 14, and will soon try FineReader 15. However, I *have* been able to satisfactorily resolve the line-justification problems in the file example cited at the beginning of this forum thread, using both the small adjustment in XChane suggested by Daniel, *and* by experimenting within Acrobat's Tools > Content Editing > Edit Text & Images > Format window.

For some reason I am unable to directly insert images into these forum postings, but at the following (top) URL, note particularly the small, red-circled "+" symbol that expands the Format window downward. It is specifically illustrated in the ed_EditFormatTextPalette.png image at the expanded (second) URL below. I still have not discovered the technical terms applied to these values, but by making fine adjustments to either or both of the horizontally underlined "AV" and "T" values, I was able to tweak the line justification to my satisfaction. (Perhaps Daniel can cite the terms from the formal technical specifications document(s) for PDF files.)

https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/11/using/edit-text-pdfs.html

https://helpx.adobe.com/content/dam/help/en/acrobat/11/using/edit-text-pdfs/_jcr_content/main-pars/procesure_0/proc_par/step_2/step_par/image_0/ed_EditFormatTextPalette.png

If you still have access to that trial version of Acrobat, consider giving this a try. Definitely YMMV, MarkT

P.S. In an above posting, Daniel cites an "invisible character" residing at the end of my "problem" line. Precisely what *is* that character, Daniel? In the meantime I *finally* heard back from ABBYY about this problem, and they illustrated a method of selecting, and then deleting, this mystery character. That *finally* right-justified that last line. (If ABBYY bothers to mention any of this in their user documentation, I have not yet been able to find it. FWIIW.)

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:56 pm

Hello Mark and Stephen,
StephenCWLL wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:10 pm
The issue seems to come down to fonts if I read this thread correctly?
Depending on the document at hand, but generally speaking yes, the issue is often related to incorrect font formatting being used by some applications during document assembly. Oftentimes we can work around this with the steps above, simply by changing some font values, and possible playing with the paragraph options (Ctrl+H), but we are looking into a method of detecting these issues and either informing you, or if it is reliable enough, immediately fixing the issue in certain contexts (such as text selection).
Markt-a1b wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:45 pm
For some reason I am unable to directly insert images into these forum postings, but at the following (top) URL, note particularly the small, red-circled "+" symbol that expands the Format window downward. It is specifically illustrated in the ed_EditFormatTextPalette.png image at the expanded (second) URL below. I still have not discovered the technical terms applied to these values, but by making fine adjustments to either or both of the horizontally underlined "AV" and "T" values, I was able to tweak the line justification to my satisfaction. (Perhaps Daniel can cite the terms from the formal technical specifications document(s) for PDF files.)
When adding images on the forums, you can either paste them directly if they are in your clipboard (Ctrl+V) or use the "Add files" button under attachments (simply dragging the image file directly into the text editing window also works):
Attachments.png
There is some limitation on the type of image files it is possible to upload, and there are of course file size restrictions. Try to post PNG or Gif images, as they are fully supported, and keeping the file size below 5mb is ideal.

As for the underlined "AV" and "T" values, I am unsure what exactly you are referring to there, so I apologize if I reference the wrong items.
  • The only underlined "T" value or function of any sort I am aware of in both our software and Adobe, is the "underline" function itself (which uses and underlined "T" for its icon). No fancy technical name for this one, just "Underline" is sufficient.
  • As for the "AV" field you speak of, did you by chance mean the "AV" icon that has a line with two arrows on opposite ends? I am afraid we do not offer such a button in the Editor, so I cannot offer much input on that function.
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:06 pm

Daniel: "... As for the underlined "AV" and "T" values...."

Sorry to be less than clear about this, Daniel. When a text item is highlighted, then the grayed "Format" window becomes much more clear (see below). *Both* the "T" and "AV" icons display beneath them the "line with two arrows on opposite ends," as you describe it.

*Both* of these window values affect horizontal spacing within the selected line (with the other two windows having to do with vertical spacing values), and by experimenting with small changes, both plus and minus, in both windows, I was able to fix the line justification to my satisfaction. (I plan to experiment more with these four lower windows within this Format drop-down, and in the meantime may be able to pin down their functions, if not the names applied to them.)

As to pasted-in graphics in forum postings, it seems that my two somewhat creaky Web browser programs, on my quite antiquated laptop PeeCee, may be tripping me up here. In any case, using a later-vintage box and browser is another way to skin this cat. Thanks, MarkT
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:59 pm

Hello Mark,

I see there, Somehow I missed the second "T" in the links you provided earlier, my apologies.
Unfortunately, as these are not functions in our own UI, I cannot offer any wisdom on their use. Trial and error would be my advice in that regard.

All the best,
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by StephenCWLL » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:49 am

I’m struggling to figure out how to “fudge” the problem.
If you take this “gap” as an example:

text.png

The bulk of the font is Frutiger-Light and the italics were changed to Sabon. Even if I change the font back to Frutiger-Light, I’m left with the gaps.

If I look at the paragraph options setting on multiple lines of the nicely spaced out text and “gap” lines I find they are mostly all over the place. Thus I guess there’s an element of it “making up” what it thinks best, probably as when you resize the textbox it’ll resize stuff.

On the line beginning “by steam” above a gap, the settings are:
1.png

On the line beginning “promising start” below a gap they are the same as above.

On the line beginning “Camborne hill” below the next gap they are weirdly:
2.png
I'm really unsure what to do?

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:52 pm

Stephen: "... I'm really unsure what to do?"

Was the above-referenced PDF file created via OCR of a scanned source, or was it "printed" (or equivalent) from a word processor (or similar) program? Especially with OCR-produced PDFs, I too am am finding that these values fall all over the place, line by line.

Daniel: "... these are not functions in our own UI, I cannot offer any wisdom on their use. Trial and error would be my advice in that regard."

My point was that the four adjustment fields I cite in the Acrobat Format window are quite likely to be elements formally defined within the specifications for PDF files, and so if Acrobat is capable of adjusting these values, then Tracker's programs should likewise be able to manipulate these in PDF-XChange Pro. I am still trying to determine the official names for these four fields, but in the meantime I strongly suspect that at least some of them are equivalent (or identical) to some of those accessed within XChange's Paragraph Options (and related) fields, as illustrated by Stephen.

If I had access to the cited Frutiger-Light and Sabon fonts, I would experiment with this page in both XChange and Acrobat.

For now, though, could someone please provide a URL pointing to the official PDF specification document(s) that govern - or at least guide - PDF software development companies like Tracker? Thank you, MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by StephenCWLL » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:27 pm

I can't really say about the originals of the PDF document because it was supplied by a designer who has sadly passed away and thus how they created it is lost to us. I'm having to learn the hard way how to edit PDF documents by trying to keep the same style and formatting he used in the PDF as I bring sections up to date and add new material.

I have found something that does seem to work with the gaps I've tried to fix thus far...

If I select the whole paragraph with the gap in, right-click, text-style, clear text formatting - obviously everything goes to default font/style - but if I then select the font/size i originally wanted, the text thus far has been correctly line-spaced with no gap, even when I change individual words back to italics.

Unsure if this "trick" will keep working but I'll see.

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Fri Oct 04, 2019 3:58 pm

Stephen: "... I have found something that does seem to work with the gaps I've tried to fix thus far..."

It sounds as though this process is re-setting - perhaps to zero - those decimal values you previously cited within XChange's Paragraph Options dialogue box. In the meantime, I have resolved that Adobe calls those four previously-cited fields in Acrobat's Format > Advanced Options drop-down window: "line spacing; character spacing; horizontal scaling; and stroke width." (The fifth box, displaying the diagonal red line, is "color" - which I take to mean stroke color, since the basic font color box is located at the top of the window.)

All four of the above parameters would seem to be part of the basic PDF file specification, and thus PDF-XChange Pro *should* be able to display and adjust each of them (IMO). Definitely YMMV, MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:30 pm

Hello all,

@Stephen
I am glad to hear you found a possible workaround, If you could share the file you are working with, I can take some time to dig into it, as I did with mark's files earlier, and see what specific item in that line could be the cause. It is entirely possible that a single letter has some "special" formatting that is breaking the entire line. Ill be sure to include steps on how I located the issue as well, so you can find them as well going forward.

@Mark
We do offer the line spacing option from the paragraph options, and stroke can be adjusted from the "format" tab when text is selected, however if they are offering character spacing this is news to me! I will need to double check, as last I was informed it was not possible, perhaps that has changed recently. Horizontal scaling, to my knowledge is automatic, and generally only noticeable when justify is enabled, though I will need to verify that personally.

Unfortunately I cannot share the PDF specifications directly, as they are only available to those who purchase them, and they unfortunately cost hundreds of dollars collectively... Though you can find most of the relevant products in this search: https://global.ihs.com/search_res.cfm?& ... g_code=ISO
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Markt-a1b » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:44 pm

Daniel: "... if they are offering character spacing this is news to me!"

After digging around deeply into Adobe's documentation to *finally* the names of these four Format window fields, a re-start of my computer (followed by the application) has re-enabled the mouse-hover pop-up labels (doh!). The "AV" with the horizontal double-arrow underneath it is indeed labeled "Character Spacing."

Daniel again: "... Horizontal scaling, to my knowledge is automatic...."

The fat "T" with the double arrow is labeled - you guessed it - "Horizontal Scaling."

In a real-world example, a couple of ABBYY OCR-derived pages in my cited 200-page document were correct as to paragraph layout, margins, word spacing, etc. - *but* for some reason had a font size set to 11, rather than to the 12 points of all the other pages. From past disasters attempting to adjust such values, it was no surprise that an attempted change to 12-point type totally wrecked both the line justification and breaks, as well as the lower boundaries of the paragraphs.

*However*, by trial-and-error experimentation with both Line Spacing and Horizontal Scaling values, I was able to make the two pages match both the original paper layout, and the rest of the pages in the document. The Line Spacing needed to be changed to .99 in a couple of paragraphs, and to .91 in the rest.

The Horizontal Scaling value ended up being 91(no decimal) in some cases, and 100 in the rest. (The AV and Stroke Width fields were left untouched, at a value of zero.)

*So*, these fields are indeed providing invaluable correction of problems that for me had heretofore been intractable, PDF Specification-"Legal" or not.

Daniel: "... [the PDF specifications] are only available to those who purchase them, and they unfortunately cost hundreds of dollars collectively... "

Ouch! In any case, thank you again for sticking with this message thread, Daniel, and for generously sharing your considerable expertise in these sometimes esoteric subjects. MarkT

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Fri Oct 04, 2019 9:31 pm

:D
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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by StephenCWLL » Sun Oct 06, 2019 10:39 am

TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:30 pm
Hello all,

@Stephen
I am glad to hear you found a possible workaround, If you could share the file you are working with, I can take some time to dig into it, as I did with mark's files earlier, and see what specific item in that line could be the cause. It is entirely possible that a single letter has some "special" formatting that is breaking the entire line. Ill be sure to include steps on how I located the issue as well, so you can find them as well going forward.
Well, so far so good. I've not got back to editing the document since the other day yet but will soon.

It'll be a logistical nightmare for me to get permission to share the whole file as it's not mine to share (if you get what I mean). Best I could do maybe create a PDF of the bits that had/have the issue maybe.

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Re: Minor Font Format Change Causing Paragraph Justification Woes

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:51 am

Hello Stephen,

Yes - getting permissions to share a file with confidential information might be troublesome!
If you can prepare a non confidential sample, that would be great! If not - we hope that the workarounds discussed earlier will be sufficient for you to get the desired results even if you can't share a file with us!

Kind Regards,
Stefan

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