logical page numbers

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glocal
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logical page numbers

Post by glocal » Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:29 pm

After years of using PDF-XChange, only now I realised it does logical page numbering. And it is very sophisticated too. Well done! I think it will be a lot more useful in practice if (when logical numbering is on) page numbers displayed both physical and logical numbers, eg 240 (250)/250 which is: logical (physical)/total. That's the best of both worlds and you can tell how many pages are left.

It will also be much easier to be able to tell the program 'Page 1 is here' without having to define Cover, Pages i, ii etc as well. This would work well with most ebooks.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Patrick-Tracker Supp » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:09 pm

Hello Glocal,

I am afraid that it somewhat defeats the purpose of having the setting in the first place. I'll pass this along, but I am not confident this will be implemented.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by glocal » Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:33 pm

I hadn't realised when I posted this but I see now Acrobat actually does what I described. And Word does something similar when you use sections, ie they display physical, logical and total pages.

More importantly, Acrobat treats creating sections like Word does, ie you can have several sections starting from page 1. At the moment, PDF-Xchange won't allow me to start a section as Page 1 because it says there is a Page 1 already (meaning the cover).

Just to clarify, from the perspective of the reader, all I need to do most of the times is quickly to set an offset so that when the page number printed at the foot of the page is, say, 213, then the program shows the same page number on the toolbar. This is useful when someone sends you to page 213 of the print edition.

Sorry for the lengthy explanation.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:20 am

Hi glocal,

Thanks for that - I've placed a feature request for consideration in a later release.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by glocal » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:14 pm

In the meanwhile, I realised it's not always the case that total pages >= logical pages. Eg when there are x pages on a PDF page, you may get more logical pages than the total PDF pages. Eg if there are 2 pages per PDF page in landscape, then the page numbers step should be 2. I am saying that because it could be a USP for PDF-Xchange. I haven't seen another PDF program, not even Acrobat, dealing with this scenario. Oh, and of course it would be good to have logical and PDF pages numbers displayed with thumbnails etc in the side pane. Anyway, I think I said all I had to say about logical page numbers :)

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:57 am

Hi glocal,
it would be good to have logical and PDF pages numbers displayed with thumbnails etc in the side pane
I can certainly pass this along as well :)
I realised it's not always the case that total pages >= logical pages. Eg when there are x pages on a PDF page, you may get more logical pages than the total PDF pages. Eg if there are 2 pages per PDF page in landscape, then the page numbers step should be 2. I am saying that because it could be a USP for PDF-Xchange. I haven't seen another PDF program, not even Acrobat, dealing with this scenario
I'm not sure that I understand here, can you send a sample document that demonstrates what you're looking for?

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by glocal » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:24 am

I think it will be easier if I explained it better. Suppose I have a 20-page Word document and create a 10-page PDF where each PDF page will carry 2 Word doc pages side-by-side in landscape. The PDF page numbering will be 1-10, but PDF page 1 will show Word document pages 1-2, PDF page 2 will show Word document pages 3-4 etc. So, every time you go to the next PDF page, the logical page number will increase by 2 to match the page number that shows on the Word document page.

The 2-page landscape format is quite common with reports, brochures and photocopied publications.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:45 am

Thanks, that's perfect - I understand.

Unfortunately I don't know that this would be programmatically feasible for us to implement, or allowed by the ISO spec. I'll check with the Dev. Team, but I suspect that this isn't something we can do.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by glocal » Tue Dec 06, 2016 3:06 pm

Thanks for implementing this feature. By way of feedback, some issues I see:

* When creating a new range, the thumbnails numbering is updated, but the numbering on the bottom toolbar is not until you save and re-open the PDF.

* I can't see a way to create a range with a step of x (eg 2 pages per PDF page)

* Logical numbers are shown in the thumbnails pane, but not in the other panes (eg Comments). It would be good to show both logical and physical numbers in all panes.

In any case, thanks for the feature.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:35 am

Hi glocal,

Thanks for the post!
* When creating a new range, the thumbnails numbering is updated, but the numbering on the bottom toolbar is not until you save and re-open the PDF.
I've just tested here and both the Thumbnails Pane and the Navigation Bar update for me, even if I don't save the document. Are you using build 319? If not, please do give it a try:
http://www.tracker-software.com/PDFXVE6.zip
* I can't see a way to create a range with a step of x (eg 2 pages per PDF page)
Is this the feature that you requested here:
Suppose I have a 20-page Word document and create a 10-page PDF where each PDF page will carry 2 Word doc pages side-by-side in landscape. The PDF page numbering will be 1-10, but PDF page 1 will show Word document pages 1-2, PDF page 2 will show Word document pages 3-4 etc. So, every time you go to the next PDF page, the logical page number will increase by 2 to match the page number that shows on the Word document page.
If so, I don't believe that this is possible for us to implement, but I'll speak with the Dev. Team later today to give definite confirmation either way.
* Logical numbers are shown in the thumbnails pane, but not in the other panes (eg Comments). It would be good to show both logical and physical numbers in all panes.
I'll pass that along as a request too :)

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by glocal » Wed Dec 07, 2016 3:23 pm

I am afraid here the difference between the two page numberings occurs every time. See screenshot:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fis9xdfsu25dlzi/pg.jpg?dl=0

Of course I am using build 319. I wouldn't be thanking you for implementing physical and logical page numbering on the Navigation bar otherwise :)

And yes, I was referring to the 2-logical-pages-per-physical-page issue. The standard clearly supports it and build 319 supports it too. Eg I am looking at a PDF now where the navigation bar shows: 108-109/56:57. The problem is when I create a new range, there is no way to set the step to 2 or whatever else the standard allows (ie the assumption is there is one logical per physical page, like before build 319).

Incidentally, not a huge problem but showing 108-109/56:57 doesn't look right semantically. If in single page mode it shows 56/57 ('56 out of 57'), then for consistency 'from 108 to 109, or 56 out of 57' should look something like '108-109 | 56/57' or at least '108-109 : 56/57'. Ideally of course it would show '108-109/112 | 56/57' (meaning: 'from 108 to 109 out of 112, or 56 out of 57')

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:24 pm

Hi glocal,
I am afraid here the difference between the two page numberings occurs every time. See screenshot:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/fis9xdfsu25dlzi/pg.jpg?dl=0
I'm not able to reproduce this at all, so see if I'll any of my colleagues if they can.
Of course I am using build 319. I wouldn't be thanking you for implementing physical and logical page numbering on the Navigation bar otherwise :)
Oops, sorry! Should have realized that :oops:
And yes, I was referring to the 2-logical-pages-per-physical-page issue. The standard clearly supports it and build 319 supports it too. Eg I am looking at a PDF now where the navigation bar shows: 108-109/56:57. The problem is when I create a new range, there is no way to set the step to 2 or whatever else the standard allows (ie the assumption is there is one logical per physical page, like before build 319).
I wasn't actually aware that this had been implemented and I'm a little surprised, but glad! I don't have any documents here myself to test this with, but I'll pass this along to the Devs.
Incidentally, not a huge problem but showing 108-109/56:57 doesn't look right semantically. If in single page mode it shows 56/57 ('56 out of 57'), then for consistency 'from 108 to 109, or 56 out of 57' should look something like '108-109 | 56/57' or at least '108-109 : 56/57'. Ideally of course it would show '108-109/112 | 56/57' (meaning: 'from 108 to 109 out of 112, or 56 out of 57')
Will pass this along too :)

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by glocal » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:34 pm

You can try the double pages feature with this: https://iea.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2 ... 254pdf.pdf

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Wed Dec 07, 2016 4:45 pm

Thanks! Will give that a try :)
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Re: logical page numbers

Post by slaviŠa neŠiĆ » Sat Dec 31, 2016 7:06 pm

I think it will be a lot more useful in practice if (when logical numbering is on) page numbers displayed both physical and logical numbers, eg 240 (250)/250 which is: logical (physical)/total.
I can see the latest update has put both logical and physical page numbers. Very nice, thank you!

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:34 pm

;)

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Timur Born » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:42 pm

Thanks a lot for improving logical page numbers! Unfortunately they don't work for the Print dialog. Instead I have to use physical page numbers there, which is rather confusing/inconvenient for books using front- (i) and back-cover (ii).

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:31 pm

Hello Timur Born,

We've had a similar discussion here:
http://www.tracker-software.com/forum3/ ... 4&p=107149
And as mentioned there - we are going to add logical page numbers to the Print dialogue but in a future build which is not yet specified.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Timur Born » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:45 pm

Great, thanks!

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:35 pm

:)
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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Timur Born » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:45 am

Because I just had to deal with this repeatedly:

Please also add logical page numbering to the Extract dialog and especially to the Content list.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:15 pm

Hello Timur,

Most likely all those dialogues will be affected by the changes at the same time, but I will make a note to make sure that they all do ;)

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Markt-a1b » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:07 pm

Referring to https://help.tracker-software.com/pdfxe8/number-pages_ed.html?zoom_highlightsub=%22logical+page+number%22

"... it is necessary to select the Use logical page numbers box in the Page Display preferences tab, as detailed in (figure 7), in order for changes made with this feature to be visible...."

Will enabling this feature cause PDF-XChange to honor logical or offset page numbering schemes created within Acrobat Pro? (I am currently away from the XChange environment, and will thus be unable experiment with that feature until later.)

Thanks! MarkT

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Thu Sep 26, 2019 3:32 pm

Hello Mark,

Yes - the "logical" page numbers are part of the PDF specification, so even if the file was not created by us - if it's logical pages are following the PDF ISO standard - we will show them correctly.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Markt-a1b » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:51 am

Stefan: "Yes - the 'logical' page numbers are part of the PDF specification, so even if the file was not created by us - if it's logical pages are following the PDF ISO standard - we will show them correctly."

Thank you, Stefan: I have a 200-page (total) document that has a couple of sections of front matter, and three or sections of back matter The file's logical page numbering system was painstakingly created in Acrobat Pro XI.

However, after selecting the "Use logical page numbers" box in the Page Display preferences tab, and then exiting and re-starting PDF-XChange, the page numbers in the Content pane are still displaying absolute values.

Suggestions? Thanks, MarkT.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Dimitar - Tracker Supp » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:18 am

Hell Mark,

Could you please tell me whether the "Use logical page numbers" is still selected after the restart?

Also, could you please tell me what version is your PDF Editor?

Is it possible to send a screenshot of what you see at your end?


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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Markt-a1b » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:49 pm

Hello, Dimitar.

> Could you please tell me whether the "Use logical page numbers" is still selected after the restart?

Yes, after several program exits and re-starts, the box is still check-marked.

> Also, could you please tell me what version is your PDF Editor?

I am using the "latest and greatest" (cough!) release of Adobe Acrobat XI Pro, 11.0.20.

> Is it possible to send a screenshot of what you see at your end?

I will gladly send you a screenshot or two, but in the meantime both Acrobat's "Pages" pane and its prominent tool-bar window correctly displays numbers and letters corresponding to those printed in the original paper document, including the front and back matter; that is, the cover is "a1,"followed by pages "i" through "x," and then follows an Introduction. Logical page "1" is not displayed until page 15 is reached in the absolute scheme.

Now, though, I do see in the *tiny*-typeface window at the bottom of the PDF-XChange main page that it *is* correctly displaying the logical page numbers. However, the page's "Contents" pane at the left simply begins with "Page 1," and then continues upward in straight numerical succession. Is there any way to cause this pane to display the *logical* numbers - instead of or in addition to the absolute numbers?

That certainly would make it easier and quicker for a user to move to the PDF-XChange page corresponding to a given page in the original (printed) document.

Screen shots to follow. Thanks! MarkT

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:05 pm

Hello Mark,

Apologies, Dimitar was wondering what the version and build of our PDF-Xchange Editor you currently have running is, not what PDF editing application was used to create the document. Could you Click help > about, and tell us what you see on that screen?

I also want to verify, as I noticed you mentioned the contents pane, this pane is supposed to show the absolute page number at all times to my knowledge, can you please try opening the Thumbnails pane (Ctrl+T) and tell us if the logical page numbers are reflected there?

Beyond that, Along with the screenshots requested earlier, if you could send us a copy of any document you can reproduce this issue with, it would certainly help. If the document contains sensitive information, please send it via email to Support@tracker-software.com with a link to this forum post.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Markt-a1b » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:46 pm

> ... what the version and build of our PDF-Xchange Editor you currently have running[?]

8.0 build 332.0 (Enhanced OCR) Aug. 26, 2019

Apropos of incremental updates, will Tracker notify me via e-mail as new ones become available? If any have been issued since I downloaded and installed the above version, I have not been so apprised.

> ... the contents pane ... is supposed to show the absolute page number at all times....

Ah, then: "It's a *feature*, not a bug!" <grin>

Thus the Contents pane is working as designed, and yes, the Thumbnails pane *is* displaying the correct logical page numbers for this 200-page document.

In the meantime I'll still be happy to send screen shots and a sample file, but thanks to your and Dimitar's able assistance, I am now able to confirm that the program is indeed honoring the logical page numbering scheme(s), as created withing Acrobat.

Thanks! MarkT

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:51 pm

Hello Mark,

We do not often send out notices when updates become available, although our updater can be set to check for updates periodically. We have released a new build since, (build 333.0) so if you wish to update, feel free to do so. You can check for updates at any time manually by clicking help > check for updates within the Editor.

On the remainder, I am glad to hear it is all working as expected, In that case, we do not need screenshots or the document, so you can rest easy there.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Markt-a1b » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:34 pm

Thanks, Daniel. The program Update options for XChange are quite handy and flexible, and I have already set them up to my liking. In the meantime, does Tracker by any chance publish program Change Logs, similar to those maintained by ABBYY for successive versions and updates of FineReader (etc.)? See:

https://support.abbyy.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000988149-FineReader-14-Change-Log

https://support.abbyy.com/hc/en-us/articles/360008536920-FineReader-15-Change-Log

Thanks again! MarkT

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:51 pm

Hi Mark,

You can check the change logs here:
https://www.tracker-software.com/produc ... or/history

For other products, this can be found on their product page.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Markt-a1b » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:02 pm

Will writes: You can check the change logs here: https://www.tracker-software.com/product/pdf-xchange-editor/history

Thank you, Will, that is quite helpful and informative.

Meanwhile, at this moment it is awfully late in London, on a Saturday night, so you might consider sleeping *sometime*! <grin> MarkT

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Will - Tracker Supp » Sun Sep 29, 2019 7:34 pm

No worries Mark! I'll try and get some sleep tonight :wink:
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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Timur Born » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:32 am

Markt-a1b wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:46 pm
> ... the contents pane ... is supposed to show the absolute page number at all times....

Ah, then: "It's a *feature*, not a bug!" <grin>
I often struggle to find the correct page in the content pane, because I am mostly using logical page numbers everywhere else (unfortunately still not possible in all dialogs).

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Thu Oct 03, 2019 11:43 am

Hello Timur,

As already stated - the contents pane is intended to work that way, so we do not envisage changing the way page numbers are listed in there for the time being!

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Stefan

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Timur Born » Tue Oct 08, 2019 1:09 am

Wasn't there a shortcut to display the current page in the content pane? I cannot remember, but that would be helpful, especially if you are viewing something like page 300 out of 500 and the content pane list is still displaying from page 1.

I know that there is the "Automatically Expand Content Item" option. But that is of little use with locked documents that don't allow to select text via Edit button. It does work with images that are selected via "Select Text", but not with text and paths selected via "Select Text".

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:51 am

Hello Timur,

There is the "Automatically expand content items":
Content_items.png
Which when selected will auto navigate through the contents pane while you are selecting base content objects on the PDF's pages.

Regards,
Stefan

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Timur Born » Tue Oct 08, 2019 6:18 pm

Thanks for the answer, Stefan, but it seems you somewhat missed my last sentence about the limits of exactly that feature?!

Shorter version: It only works for images with the "Select Text" tool, not for text or paths.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:30 pm

Hello Timur,

Unfortunately, when a document is locked, we are limited in the actions available, so this would indeed not be possible.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Timur Born » Wed Oct 09, 2019 7:16 pm

Well, the "Select Text" limitation happens for locked and unlocked documents. At the same time it *does* work with images even in locked documents and you can browse the content anyway. So it does not look like a restriction of documents being locked, but an oversight of the "Select Text" tool not properly working the same way with text and paths.

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Re: logical page numbers

Post by Tracker Supp-Stefan » Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:40 am

Hi Timur,

The "Select Text" does not select the actual object in the same way as e.g. the Edit content tool does. If you switch to the Edit tool - and click on a text object area just once (so that you do not enter the Base content Editing mode) - this will trigger the "Automatically expand content items" - and take you to the correct object in the contents pane.

Regards,
Stefan

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