Highlight Feature - the Sequel

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standish-001
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Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by standish-001 »

Hi,

Well! There I was, banging on about the highlight feature, only to find my poor wee post locked? https://forum.pdf-xchange.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37781

And! JUST when I was going to post the pièce de résistance! :lol:

Or, at least a wee breakthrough.

I realized that what was happening was a sort of dual logical fallacy - equivocation & missing the point.

What I WOULD have said, in my own poor locked-out thread - was that to call a system where...
If there is a bookmark at the top and bottom of every page, It is entirely expected that the one at the bottom will be skipped, if you do not line up the viewing area perfectly to have the last sliver of the page where this "page end" bookmark actually starts.
...does not describe the way a bookmark works in any fashion. Thus, the equivocation.

And...the frustration. In the same way if you called a cone shaped piece of paper an ice cream cone. Sure! It's cone shaped but...as far as acting like an ice cream cone it doesn't work.

Returning to the bookmark metaphor - there's never been an actual bookmark I've ever put in a book which lost it's relevance. I put the bookmark in the book and...there it remained - visible no mater where I held the book. And, if I put a yellow post-it on each of 10 pages to let me know I was in the Age of Reason, then...each one of those pages I turned to...no doubt where I am.

So, thus the equivocation. We're CALLING what we have here a bookmark but, in actual point of fact, it's not able to function as one.

Which leads me to what I would suggest - applying some OTHER feature of the PDF protocol that would work. That is, building a legitimate, single-use pane that just shows a person where they are as they scroll through a document.

Now! Is that a big deal? Important? I hasten to show as support that @igorlima seemed to be working in the law. And writes:
But, as I think we are all agreeing here, the way that the highlight works now can cause those frustrations when you have some bookmarks disposed in an certain way. Unfortunately, I feel that this "way" happens a good amount of times for me, as I really cherish the bookmark feature and use a lot.

Considering that I already think the bookmark feature is really good in PDF X-CHANGE and its essentiality on navigating through huge documents with no images and a lot of topics and subtopics bookmarked, I really wish that this "highlight bookmark feature" could indicate multiple bookmarks at once if they share totally or partially the same page location.
And! Not only did he COMMENT on a post he had not written, he went to great lengths to illustrate it...TWICE! Making first an elegant GIF, and following that up with a movie.

A movie.

About bookmarks.

https://forum.pdf-xchange.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37781#p156011

WHY?

Here comes the missing the point part - because, at least for me, and I'm guessing for Igor, too - I make my living reading and RE-READING works that I need to comment on. Not knowing if I'm in the

Theory
vs
Practice

section of what I'm reading means I've just got to drag around a bunch of windows and then...do it over. Again. And, again, and again.

Worse, yet - each time I'm in that situation I need to actively IGNORE the wrong message I'm getting from the software. Because - we call them bookmarks but, they don't work that way.

Having a feature in the software that actually shows the WRONG bookmarks is...the same as having no bookmarks at all.

Returns me to my own example, and Igor's. Igor wrote:
When those things happens I get confused on how this highlight bookmark feature works and I start questing myself if I'm adding bookmark the wrong or the less efficient way.
To say
this (being the intended handling)
completely misses what I, we're?, saying - building out an elaborate system - imagine the time investment among users to

book
mark
every
section

and then, when it doesn't function at all in the way "bookmarks" do themselves to continue by clearly and in detail explain that this is the way it works. - well...then you've missed the point.

Not only missed the point, but only offered an argument from definition! Yet another informal fallacy.

To say of the software...
It is entirely expected that the one at the bottom will be skipped, if you do not line up the viewing area perfectly to have the last sliver of the page where this "page end" bookmark actually starts.
...actually makes no sense at all, if you're calling this a "bookmark". Only if you define bookmarks as being tied to XY coordinates.

As Igor said:
I really cherish the bookmark feature and use a lot.

Considering that I already think the bookmark feature is really good in PDF X-CHANGE and its essentiality on navigating through ruge documents with no images and a lot of topics and subtopics bookmarked, I really wish that this "highlight bookmark feature" could indicate multiple bookmarks at once if they share totally or partially the same page location.
I think the most striking word here is "cherish". And, it is so well chosen! Exactly how I feel. If you're faced with a TOME - no physical copy and ONLY the three screens on your desk with which to make a comparative analysis of what it's telling you - 500+ pages...you can BET bookmarks will be cherished.

Again, from Igor:
When those things happens I get confused on how this highlight bookmark feature works and I start questing myself if I'm adding bookmark the wrong or the less efficient way.
This is the part where I feel so disappointed. Because, for me, with the work I'm asked to do, I'm usually boiling my wee brain - slogging through some FAIRLY abstruse theoretical things.

Then, I find myself in a hole, and need to climb right out due to the design of the program.

I hasten to point out above - the software CONFUSES. Software for reading.

I've submitted similar things in the app before. All met with the same response. By definition - it's working! There's no universe where a

READING

application is unable to execute

BOOKMARKS

That would be similar to a cup that couldn't hold water.

And, herein lies the rub (REAL conclusion here, I promise!)

If I read that my software for readers was confusing people...as they READ...that, for me, would be a 5-alarm fire.

In fact, I'd have that fixed in a month's time. Truly. As a "feature" of reading software....it's kind of unimaginable that it would be allowed to persist. All hands on deck.

I encourage the same response from the team here.

MY SUGGESTION
Apply some OTHER feature of the PDF protocol that would work. That is, building a legitimate, single use pane that just shows a person where they are as they scroll through a document.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

I love this post and will make sure to write something specific about it's feature request later today :)
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, Igor and David,

Thank you Igor for the elaborate rehashing of out the previous conversation. The topic was closed because, after a discussion with the Dev team it was determined that:

1. There is no bug here, the reported functions, though not always ideal, are the current intended handling working as designed.
2. There is very little which can be done to improve the current bookmark highlight handling, but they will be looking into it and see what they can do.
3. A ticket was created specifically to address the biggest issues that were collectively determined by everyone in that thread, all currently visible bookmarks should be able to be highlighted at once.

As you yourself say above, if you place multiple bookmarks in a single book, none of them ever loose their use. Though it gets the point across, when compared to PDF, it falls short. In a PDF document, you can, and as we have seen, many people often do place 16 (arbitrary number for example) bookmarks on a single page. I think you would be hard-pressed to convince people you have tried to place 16 separate physical bookmarks in a physical book, and found all of them to be useful. Perhaps one or two bookmarks for the page, and sticky notes in each section, but placing 16 color coded ribbons, or paper/plastic slats in a single page would indeed render many of them less useful than normal.

There are different tools for different jobs, and nothing can be a "catch all, and make everyone happy" solution. We do our best, but there are times when we simply cannot please everyone. Bookmarks in PDF are only intended to operate as a link to a specific visual location on a page, they serve that purpose correctly. Drawing an eye to a specific area on the page is not within the purview of bookmarks, though we have tried to offer a bit of that after many requests.

This is a step in the evolution of the feature, but there are limits to what can be done right here and now. Short of demanding that you connect a camera and train your PC to know where you eyes are looking (not something we ever intend to do), it is quite impossible for us to know where you are looking, and what single specific bookmark should be highlighted when multiple are on a page, so a single "point of interest" needed to be decided upon by our Dev team.

Kind regards,
Dan McIntyre - Support Technician
Tracker Software Products (Canada) LTD

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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by PHK »

standish-001 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:39 am...
If there is a bookmark at the top and bottom of every page, It is entirely expected that the one at the bottom will be skipped, if you do not line up the viewing area perfectly to have the last sliver of the page where this "page end" bookmark actually starts.
...
I don't understand this notion of "a bookmark at the top and bottom of every page." It seems to me that Bookmarks relate only to a page without reference to any particular part of the page. So, no matter how many Bookmarks you have on a single page, even with differing text, they will always yield the same view. But if you click on the Bookmark, the view will be shifted to that referenced page and will be governed by whatever view the user has operative. That is, if the user has set the view to the entire page ([Ctrl-zero]), they will get the entire page. If the view has been zoomed-in to a portion of the page, clicking on a Bookmark taking you to another page will give you a zoomed-in view of that new page positioned in the upper left hand corner (x=0,y=0). So, all Bookmarks on a single page will yield all the same views of that page. It is not like a physical sticky note or sticky tab where you can position each one on a separate area of the paper page and it will stay put as long as the adhesive adheres.

When Daniel says "I also hope that others can review this conversation and understand why I too am saying, that, as problematic as it is, this is indeed functioning as intended, and not something which really has much leeway to change. A new feature to show all that are visible on the other hand, is much more possible, and likely the best solution for all problems here," I understand what he is saying. But I can see doing something like what he proposes as "problematic." If the screen focus is the entire [ctrl-zero] page view then, yes, I can see that highlighting all the Bookmarks of that page would be "nice." If, however, the focus is less than the full page, do you want only the Bookmarks that relate to the visible portion of the page? I don't see how that would be achievable.

As a practical matter, I frequently use multiple Bookmarks on a single page to indicate that that page has something somewhere on it that relates to the text of the referenced page. That is useful enough for me; I can let my eyes do the rest of the work to find the exact detail. I can establish a hierarchy of Bookmarks that follow whatever logic I impose and I will know that a click on a Bookmark will bring the page of that Bookmark into focus, regardless of the organization in the Bookmarks pane.

Finally, I wonder if the Named Destinations functionality might be a useful alternative. The user can established Named Destinations that are visible in the Destinations pane, showing the page number of the destination. Multiple Names for each page can be created and the page number will automatically be shown in the pane. One can sort both the Names and the Pages in ascending or descending order so one can see where there are duplications of the name or of the page. I am not sure how OP is using PDF-XCE so I cannot be sure if this is helpful.
All best,

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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, PHK
PHK wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:11 pm I don't understand this notion of "a bookmark at the top and bottom of every page." It seems to me that Bookmarks relate only to a page without reference to any particular part of the page. So, no matter how many Bookmarks you have on a single page, even with differing text, they will always yield the same view.
In a physical book, yes that is how bookmarks work, in PDF they can and do point to specific coordinates on the page, not just the page as a whole. Many applications, including ours, offer options to disallow forced changing of the zoom settings, but regardless of that, the bookmark itself can still point to an area on the side, middle, bottom etc, of the page. Detecting which you are looking at, especially on a document with multiple sections and multiple bookmarks in varying places is the crux of the issue here. We simply cannot know which one is being looked at with certainty; that is outright impossible.

Do also note that the proposed request to "show all" has been fielded as a request for the "option" to do so, the current handling should still be available for those who want it.

Destinations are a bit different and do not offer a "highlight" function in the pane, like bookmarks do. They may be a nice alternative for some people, but in the case of this discussion they have no bearing.

Kind regards,
Dan McIntyre - Support Technician
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by PHK »

TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:35 pm ... Many applications, including ours, offer options to disallow forced changing of the zoom settings, but regardless of that, the bookmark itself can still point to an area on the side, middle, bottom etc, of the page. Detecting which you are looking at, especially on a document with multiple sections and multiple bookmarks in varying places is the crux of the issue here. We simply cannot know which one is being looked at with certainty; that is outright impossible.
...
In the vein of "you learn something every day" this is news to me. I had no idea. I will have to teach myself how to do that although I am not sure I "need to know."

But, at the end of the day, I still see Bookmarks utility as being mostly a one-way proposition: From the Bookmarks pane to the Document window, but not the other way back.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

Hello all,

just a short note on this feature idea that describes something which I have also had in mind for literally decades...
standish-001 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:39 amMY SUGGESTION [...] is, building a legitimate, single use pane that just shows a person where they are as they scroll through a document.
I even had a prototype built together with some people for the then Firefox browser, see here in 2011:
Image
https://forum.pdf-xchange.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=9945&hilit=reading#p45277

The "Keywords Overview Map" to the right is what I believe resembles something like a "single use pane that just shows a person where they are as they scroll through a document" that you have in mind.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, David.P

This looks quite interesting, and though I can see how it relates to Standish's request there, I can say with some confidence, the odds of seeing an implementation of this, beyond the existing "Thumbnails" or "Bookmarks" panes, which both can highlight and scroll to show where you are in a document, along with the "search" function, which is able to highlight and mark where results are in the scrollbar, is unlikely. Yes, these are each separate functions, but they do collectively serve the purposes that we are looking for here.

The Dev team has already reviewed these threads, and we have had that discussion, they are happy to look into offering an option to highlight all bookmarks that are within the visible area of the editor, and they are happy to review the functionality of the current highlight feature to see if there is any more room for improvement, although we do not believe there is. The effort is being made to see what is possible in this regard.

Kind regards,
Dan McIntyre - Support Technician
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by standish-001 »

Hi,

@TrackerSupp-Daniel -

Please, to begin - I'm Walt, not Igor.

You wrote:
Thank you Igor for the elaborate rehashing of out the previous conversation.
Condescending. Not in the spirit of what we’re trying to do here. Not exactly the way to treat customers.


Additionally, you didn't understand the point I'm making nor the question I'm asking. Which Is why I think you're saying what you've done is to
review the functionality of the current highlight feature to see if there is any more room for improvement, although we do not believe there is.

I'll illustrate with another user's misunderstanding of what Igor and I have described
I don't understand this notion of "a bookmark at the top and bottom of every page." It seems to me that Bookmarks relate only to a page without reference to any particular part of the page. So, no matter how many Bookmarks you have on a single page, even with differing text, they will always yield the same view. But if you click on the Bookmark, the view will be shifted to that referenced page and will be governed by whatever view the user has operative. That is, if the user has set the view to the entire page ([Ctrl-zero]), they will get the entire page. If the view has been zoomed-in to a portion of the page, clicking on a Bookmark taking you to another page will give you a zoomed-in view of that new page positioned in the upper left hand corner (x=0,y=0). So, all Bookmarks on a single page will yield all the same views of that page. It is not like a physical sticky note or sticky tab where you can position each one on a separate area of the paper page and it will stay put as long as the adhesive adheres.
Missing the Point.

PHK is using bookmarks to GET where he wants to be.

We’re using bookmarks to be REMINDED of where we are.

For example: Municipal Code, Civil Code, Criminal Code. The TEXT of these restrictions will all look the same but…the IMPLICATIONS are all wildly different if - when I look to the bookmarks pane it tells me, “Oh! You’re in Civil Law.”


Further still:
When Daniel says "I also hope that others can review this conversation and understand why I too am saying, that, as problematic as it is, this is indeed functioning as intended, and not something which really has much leeway to change. A new feature to show all that are visible on the other hand, is much more possible, and likely the best solution for all problems here," I understand what he is saying. But I can see doing something like what he proposes as "problematic." If the screen focus is the entire [ctrl-zero] page view then, yes, I can see that highlighting all the Bookmarks of that page would be "nice." If, however, the focus is less than the full page, do you want only the Bookmarks that relate to the visible portion of the page? I don't see how that would be achievable.
Missing the Point - same reason. It’s not about GETTING anywhere. It’s about KNOWING where you are.

And, it seems, Daniel, even YOU have misunderstood the request:
This is a step in the evolution of the feature, but there are limits to what can be done right here and now. Short of demanding that you connect a camera and train your PC to know where you eyes are looking (not something we ever intend to do), it is quite impossible for us to know where you are looking, and what single specific bookmark should be highlighted when multiple are on a page, so a single "point of interest" needed to be decided upon by our Dev team.
You’re presuming we’re asking that you know where our EYE is. Am I right? Is it true that they system ALWAYS knows where…our MOUSE is, or where it has clicked?

Repeated again here:
Detecting which you are looking at, especially on a document with multiple sections and multiple bookmarks in varying places is the crux of the issue here. We simply cannot know which one is being looked at with certainty; that is outright impossible.
Actual, complete and four square point missed, with shades of Strawman - no one is asking the system to know where our eye is looking. Only that, at least it could know where our mouse is, or at least our screen edge.

We're asking you for a reliable, single-click method of being accurately told where we are in a big book. How about this - mash the mouse button on any page and it updates the bookmark pane to whatever bookmark you're under?

As I hasten to point out, Igor not only made a GIF about this issue, he made a MOVIE. It may be comforting to tell yourself that requests such as these are people asking you to know where our eyes are, or trying to be a catch all, and make everyone happy solution. That's a Strawman Argument - to exaggerate a person's position and then to attack the exaggeration not the point originally raised.

What you're being told here is that, as far as reading goes...the system returns faulty data. Shows 1 when it should show zero. And, that confuses readers.

Sincerely,

SW

CODA
As you yourself say above, if you place multiple bookmarks in a single book, none of them ever loose their use. Though it gets the point across, when compared to PDF, it falls short. In a PDF document, you can, and as we have seen, many people often do place 16 (arbitrary number for example) bookmarks on a single page. I think you would be hard-pressed to convince people you have tried to place 16 separate physical bookmarks in a physical book, and found all of them to be useful. Perhaps one or two bookmarks for the page, and sticky notes in each section, but placing 16 color coded ribbons, or paper/plastic slats in a single page would indeed render many of them less useful than normal.
Strawman argument, again- to exaggerate another person’s position and then shoot down the exaggeration instead of dealing with the ACTUAL point.

I’ll illustrate very simply. One book - four bookmarks. Ancient History - Middle Ages - Reformation - Age of Reason. If I put 4 post its in the book, once I PASS one of them I can look at the bookmark - where I’ve written “Reformation” and KNOW with absolute certainty - every page AFTER this one…that’s the Reformation. Every page BEFORE this one - that’s the Middle Ages. No matter how many times I PASS the bookmarks.

In the current iteration of “bookmarks” if the Reformation and the Middle Ages break on the same page -as EASLIY they would…looking in the bookmarks pane it would very likely tell me I was still in the Middle Ages.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by PHK »

I don't actually think I am "missing the point" and I agree that I am "using the Bookmarks to GET where" I want to be. In fact, I think that the point of Bookmarks is to GET where the user wants to be. Your desire to use Bookmarks for things they are not meant to do has led you to this point of frustration. I am sympathetic.

Walt, I can understand you have a need to know where you are in a document and to be reminded where you are. But I think that need is best addressed in some way other than Bookmarks. For instance, if there was a "key words" functionality that associated an area of a page or even ranges of pages then you could designate those areas "Reformation", "Age or Reason", "BS", or anything else of your chosing. There could be a Key Words side panel maybe with an index of where those zones are and that automatically lights up the Key Word if you are in the zone.

Maybe this would be a new challenge for the Dev Team rather than asking them to reshape a function that is serving us well as is.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

Whoaa, it seems that there are at least two attorneys present in this thread 8)

Anyway, regarding the topic, as far as I believe to have followed it: if the bookmarks are set up properly, even if there are several bookmarks on the same page, the corresponding bookmark will be highlighted without difficulty in the bookmarks Pane as soon as it is reached by scrolling, more precisely as soon as the text position associated with that bookmark has reached the top of the visible screen area.

Have a look at the attached sample document. When scrolling (not too fast) through that document, the respective highlighted bookmark changes as soon as the text paragraph (in this case a small piece of text) associated with that bookmark reaches the top of the window, i.e. as soon as you are within (i.e. below) the beginning of the text associated with that bookmark.

In order for this to work, the bookmarks must be created in a way such that they have at least the Y-coordinate defined, as it is the case with the bookmarks in the attached sample document like so:

Image

Hth & Best regards
David.P
--
some bookmarks on a page.pdf
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by PHK »

standish-001 wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:05 pm...

I’ll illustrate very simply. One book - four bookmarks. Ancient History - Middle Ages - Reformation - Age of Reason. If I put 4 post its in the book, once I PASS one of them I can look at the bookmark - where I’ve written “Reformation” and KNOW with absolute certainty - every page AFTER this one…that’s the Reformation. Every page BEFORE this one - that’s the Middle Ages. No matter how many times I PASS the bookmarks...
One last stab at trying to find a Bookmarks alternative within the existing PDF-XCE structure: Logical pages, in the Number Pages function. You could define a page range "Reformation", etc. However, let me be the first to admit there are problems with this approach. Most significantly, the location window at the bottom is not dynamic in that it does not size itself to accomodate what should be displayed. I have written this up before and I believe there is an open Dev Team ticket on this. Secondly, it might be desirable to have a side panel that provides more information about what pages have been assigned these designations.

I think my "Key Words" functionality development suggestion above is more to your needs, Walt, but this might be something to help now.
All best,

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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by PHK »

David.P wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:37 pm ...the bookmarks must be created in a way such that they have at least the Y-coordinate defined...
I, for one, find this process of defining locus of a Bookmark cumbersome beyond reasonable for daily use, maybe that's why I was unaware until yesterday. One would have to care an awful lot about that to justify the input effort. I am happy just to GET to the page of the Bookmark and do a visual search once on the right page.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

David.P wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:37 pmIn order for this to work, the bookmarks must be created in a way such that they have at least the Y-coordinate defined
If you select text on the page and then press CTRL+SHIFT+B, a bookmark is automatically created with the upper left corner of the selected text as its coordinates.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by PHK »

David.P wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:14 pm
David.P wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:37 pmIn order for this to work, the bookmarks must be created in a way such that they have at least the Y-coordinate defined
If you select text on the page and then press CTRL+SHIFT+B, a bookmark is automatically created with the upper left corner of the selected text as its coordinates.
Mine did not. I may have deleted that keyboard shortcut in the past if it was a default setting. However, I see that if I set up such a shortcut it will do exactly as you say; thanks, that is new to me although probably not to useful for me. I am happy just to get to the page. But for others working on large pages like an architectural drawings, I can see this as having a great deal of utility.

It must be noted that this is not on point to Walt's issue as it is all about GETTING to a view rather than showing where you are.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

PHK wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:52 pmIt must be noted that this is not on point to Walt's issue as it is all about GETTING to a view rather than showing where you are.
It is to the point insofar as Walt's requirements are met as soon as the bookmarks are created as shown in the above screenshot (i.e. with a non-empty Y-coordinate that points to where the paragraph starts). Of course, for third-party documents, this depends solely on how the bookmarks were created by that party.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, Walt, David, and PHK,

First, Walt, I apologize, I did indeed get you and Igor's names mixed up in my re-reading of the thread. And yes, perhaps I am misunderstanding your motives and desires here, but I do think you are equally misunderstanding what I have already stated in this conversation.

PHK and David make a good case that having properly created bookmarks, which are clearly divided on the page will significantly help to mitigate any problems you have with the current handling of the highlight feature.

Based on your requests, you want a method for bookmarks to more accurately identify where you are in the document. The problem that arises most commonly here is with (fully or partially) overlapping bookmarks, it does not matter what method we use (eye, mouse, page position, scroll, timer, etc) if there are overlapping bookmarks, it will be difficult, if not outright impossible to *always* properly identify where you are. As I have also already mentioned, the Dev team is looking into this to see, where and if, they can make any improvements. That is the most that I can offer, and what I have already offered multiple times now in the line of thought regarding only showing a single bookmark highlight.

Now, as for helping to identify where you may be, I see no reason why the feature request to highlight all bookmarks that are within the viewing area would not help to serve this purpose. At the very least, it would without a doubt do these two things quite well:
1. It would avoid the problem caused by overlapping bookmarks, by highlighting BOTH bookmarks, instead of the incorrect one.
2. In cases where many are highlighted, it would help you to more quickly narrow down those which actually matter in the context of the viewing area. This would be a marked improvement over the exact issue mentioned in point 1.

At this point, we have looped back in the conversation to the same point as the last thread was closed, but until we see the dev team begin working on either of these features, I do not expect that we will see much more come from discussion alone on that front.

If that does not serve what it is you are looking for, It may be as David says here, what you are looking for could be a new feature entirely, instead of a change to the handling of another that already serves its own purpose quite faithfully.

Kind regards,
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

Thanks to Daniel for the helpful summary!

I haven't followed the earlier thread(s) in detail and don't know if this has been discussed further above already:
TrackerSupp-Daniel wrote: Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:20 pmNow, as for helping to identify where you may be, I see no reason why the feature request to highlight all bookmarks that are within the viewing area would not help to serve this purpose.
However, I would consider this improvement a good step forward.

Currently, the highlighting of a bookmark is based on whether the associated text has already bumped to the top of the screen, or has started to flow beyond.

In reality, however, the text of interest will usually be around the vertical center of the screen, so if there are multiple bookmarks on a page, and even more so if bookmarks overlap each other (vertically, i.e. with their Y-coordinate), the correct bookmark of interest would frequently not be highlighted.

Therefore, highlighting all bookmarks whose targets are currently visible on the screen would be a very good feature in my opinion.
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Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

:)
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by standish-001 »

@PHK and @ TrackerSupp-Daniel
I don't actually think I am "missing the point" and I agree that I am "using the Bookmarks to GET where" I want to be. In fact, I think that the point of Bookmarks is to GET where the user wants to be. Your desire to use Bookmarks for things they are not meant to do has led you to this point of frustration. I am sympathetic.
When I read this I felt disappointed, even surprised. I’ve reached this point on several occasions on this forum, and have actually given up. I’ll press through here as this is an important topic.

MISSING THE POINT
First, I wrote
The bookmarks in the bookmarks pane don’t update.
I think there’s a bug in the bookmarks. <-- My point

You wrote
The bookmarks in the bookmarks pane don’t update.
The updating bookmarks pane isn’t an issue to me. <-- Your point

THE PERILS OF DEDUCTION
It sounds like, to you, the point of Bookmarks is to GET where the user wants to be, alone. And, using them for any other purpose is for things they are not meant to do. This is an argument from definition.

Now, that’s a kind of deductive logic. And, deductive logic is powerful, but risky. Let me illustrate:

All movie stars are celebrities.
Halle Berry is a movie star.
Halle Berry is a celebrity.
Yes! Valid reasoning! And, we’re good!

BUT…deductive reasoning ALSO requires one OTHER feature! So,

All pro tennis players use a two-handed backhand.
Roger Federer is a tennis pro.
Roger Federer uses a two-handed backhand.

Well?

Please see this: https://images.nymag.com/news/intelligencer/intelposts100920_federer_560.jpg

You see, that’s the TRICK of deduction. Not only do you need valid reasoning. The statements ALSO need to be true. The above argument above is valid. But, the conclusion is false IF one of the statements is false. And, it is indeed false that “All tennis pros use a two-handed backhand.”

To re-write what PKH has written.

All properly functioning bookmarks are things used only for GETING to a page.
PDFX’s bookmarks get you to a page.
PDFX’s bookmarks are properly functioning.

So…that begs the question: is getting you to a page successfully the ONLY function of a bookmark?

Certainly I’m telling you that’s not how I use bookmarks. Additionally, it appears that this s not how Igor uses bookmarks. And, if you considered how even MOST people have used bookmarks, for example: any parts purchasing manual with a bookmark. Once I pass the “Import” bookmark, I know ALL the parts I’m seeing prices for are for locally made ones.

What I’ve illustrated here is the risk you run in using deductive arguments. It REQUIRES that your premises are true.

In this case - is it TRUE that the ONLY way people use bookmarks is to GET to a page? Clearly, that’s false.

And, thus, your assertion - but WORSE - the assertions of the good DEVELOPER folks here at Tracker that the software handling as intended is ALSO false.

And, THIS is the reason why I’ve felt roundly frustrated by posting for help in the forum.

I’ll venture that lots of the developers consider DISPLAYING a document as enough. We’ve displayed it. None of the ideas on the previous pages are relevant to the shown page or the future. Keep moving forward. Page can be seen. Next page!

For the work I do, I’m going back and forth between multiple texts each one asserting different things. It is the argument they are making that I need to follow.

Asking me to zoom out to see the top of the page each time I pass a section - that is ignore the bookmark highlighting - or, asking me to tolerate the WRONG bookmarks getting highlighted in a spirit of bonhomie is not something I’m willing to do because…I paid for a WORKING product. Please realize, I’m spending my own time to illustrate that what your product CLAIMS to do - to highlight bookmarks in real time, it does NOT do.

Worse - due to a constant refrain of deductive logic - “But, by definition a bookmark is…” - where NO ONE EVER questions the premises - this app has been left hidebound.

And, the developers self-supportingly defensive.

In many cases we’re trying to tell you “Using this app - perhaps the BEST one on the market - still makes our jobs HARDER than they should be if…you could only just listen.”

To illustrate my assertion read this nearly DECADE LONG request and the plaintive
“I am a 45 year old engineer. My feature request bases on my wish to build up an efficient personal knowledge management system. I read a lot. The problem I have is to remember all what I read and make it quickly accessible for future reference.”
(Not me! ANOTHER user!)

https://forum.pdf-xchange.com/viewtopic.php?p=133990#p133990

What you’re seeing there is a person who…WANTS TO BE ABLE TO USE WHAT HE READS BUT CAN’T DO SO EFFICIENTLY WITH THE APP AS-DESIGNED AND HE’S ASKING FOR SOME HELP. Help for his reading, from the reading app developers.

And, he’s been asking for it for nearly a decade. (I don't know if it is endearing or tragic that he writes TO THE FORUM OF A READING APP "I read a lot."

Imagine going to a hotel. Paying for the room and noticing there was no bed. You’ve RUNG downstairs and noted, “Hey! Nice room! Great view! Great AC! Hot shower! But, I was really relying on there being a bed here so, you know, I could get some sleep.” Well, if the reading app you’re using makes it so you CAN’T REMEMBER EFFECTIVELY THE THINGS YOU’VE READ THEN…you’re wasting your time. Anyone selling you an app FOR READING…should take such a circumstance as this seriously.

It is why I said the bookmark highlighting is a 5-alarm fire.

The good user Peter28 above is kind enough to call what he’s asking for…a FEATURE REQUEST! To design the software so that it could enable him to “…remember…what I read and make it quickly accessible for future reference.”

This is why it’s hardly worth posting in the forum here because…due to a passion for deductive thinking, arguments from definition and an inability to QUESTION if what you’re putting out isn’t actually HINDERING the good people you’re selling it to is REALLY disappointing.

It’s hard to see among the developers. It’s harder still to see among the users. Who, seemingly inured to the ways the system could be improved, seem delighted to cheer on the arguments from definition offered in defense.

@ David.P
I downloaded your page. That’s interesting. It seems like if the bookmarks have the y coordinate defined then it will work?
But…I’m using the ctrl-shift-b shortcut for my bookmarks. I wonder if your page isn’t working more because they all need to be EXACTLY underneath one another, and exactly the same size?
Currently, the highlighting of a bookmark is based on whether the associated text has already bumped to the top of the screen, or has started to flow beyond.
That’s not been so for me. I can go PAST boomarks and there’s no change. Or, in actual point of fact, many SHOULD-BE changes are missed. In fact…that’s the whole problem.

By the way - how did you get the Destination Properties open? In your proposed solution would the user need to do that for EVERY bookmark?

CONCLUSION
Finally, what’s to be done?

I’m guessing, based on the nearly ten-year-old request I referenced above, and the inability I’ve seen in general - actual resignation among the forum moderators I’ve seen when tickets are open:
“Well, I’ll open a ticket. But, I’ve got to tell you I don’t think this is something that will be…”
given all that, there’s nothing to be done. I’ll keep asking questions to find out how the “intended handling” operates.

As it stands right now, the Bookmarks Pane is broken.

I’d encourage the team here to try to listen to feature requests as things that may make good sense to readers - like the engineer Peter28, Igor, myself and, I’m guessing, countless others and not keep saying that, according to the definition, we're right.

Arguments from definition are like shackles on the mind. Said Henry Ford so long ago: "You can have the car in any color you want, so long as it's black."

Today:
Brunswick Green – Genesis.
Blu Infinito – Maserati.
Blue Laufey / California Orange – Lamborghini.
Cactus Gray – Ford.
Cherry Metallic – Porsche.
Cyber Orange – Ford.
Designo Manufaktur – Mercedes-Benz.
Diamond Sky – Cadillac

Sincerely,

SW
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

Phew, so much prose again SW...

Are you typing all this, or are you on some sort of dictation software?

Anyway, I believe what is needed here is a sample file of yours, in order to quickly see what is the actual problem.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by PHK »

SW, at the top of this thread, you said
standish-001 wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 10:39 am... building a legitimate, single-use pane that just shows a person where they are as they scroll through a document.
...
You make it clear that PDFXCE's current "Bookmark" function does not meet your needs in that regard. You think lots of users need it like you. Over to the DevTeam. I am not sure where "legitimate" fits in, though.
All best,

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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by standish-001 »

@PHK
You make it clear that PDFXCE's current "Bookmark" function does not meet your needs in that regard. You think lots of users need it like you. Over to the DevTeam. I am not sure where "legitimate" fits in, though.
Regrettably, I have to say that you’ve missed the point again.

You, and I’m sure the Devs, seem to think I’m saying that the current “Bookmark” function doesn’t meet MY NEEDS in regards to real-time updating as the pages turn. That’s false.

What I’m saying is that, as-advertised and documented, it is DESIGNED to update in real time and…it doesn’t do so. The actual DESIGN of the FINISHED product has errors.

I've used the word "legitimate" there as precisely as I know how as a native speaker of English - they've PRESENTED it to do one thing. It does NOT do that. Thus, I'd like a tool that legitimately does what it says it will do.

@ David.P
Seems that user @igorlima has MORE than amply documented what’s happening here https://forum.pdf-xchange.com/download/file.php?id=17018&mode=view

and

https://forum.pdf-xchange.com/download/file.php?id=17038 and https://forum.pdf-xchange.com/download/file.php?id=17040

So well-illustrated that @TrackerSupp-Daniel said
I understand the explanation, I can currently only say that this is the expected handling.
Which, written another way is only to say:

"Yep! It does and WILL give you the wrong results! Reliably wrong! Every time!

But, you know…we just don’t care, because it would be a lot of work to try to get it to DO what we told you it would do when we sold the package to you. And, we didn’t really think about it at the time. Despite having TOLD you it would work…it doesn’t! And…you still PAID for the program! Ha, ha! So, from OUR point of view…we’re good! Please keep posting. Our dulcet tones here of explaining “expected handling” are really just wallpaper for what in any other consumer experience we’d have to say shades into malfeasance. And, just to make you feel better, I promise to <pthffffft> Open a ticket! <holding own sides, splitting with laughghghter!>. Did you have any other issues?"

Look at user Peter28 - he’s been waiting TEN YEARS to be able to get a little help in being able to remember what he reads. Bless his heart, he “reads a lot.”

The conclusion I’M drawing is…the Devs KNOW what the problem is:
“I understand the explanation”
writes Tracker-Supp-Daniel.

Explaining problems to them is not worth the effort. As, “Tally, ho! Arguments all From Definition, so…we don’t care! Peter28! Did you spend hours reading and marking up a book? What a YOB! What? UNDERLINES don’t copy text, even though they are in the Comments group?! Ha, ha, haaaaaaa! Yep! That was a good one, eh? Well, really!~ What a demanding lot you are. Please pass your credit card through when you reach the cashier. Be sure to buy the Extended Support Plan, too! We’ll keep it up here on our end “revealing” our many mis-presented “Features” - [Still LOVING that Peter calls improvements to help remember what he’s read a FEATURE REQUEST] - and, YOU - you keep right on paying, and posting! We love to talk about the program. Even though it…kinda isn’t working the way we told you it would. Cheers!

On to the next 'expected handling'. We’re here, 24/7!”.

Sheesh.

And, finally, if there is any shaking loose of the seeming Soviet-era clinging to theory over practice among the Devs, you could EASILY demonstrate that by...by...FIXING THE BOOKMARK highlights!

With respect, we can imagine that @igorlima is involved with the law - usually an endeavor involved in justice. We need a lot more justice in the world, doggone it!

And, hopefully, I've presented my own positions here clearly enough for you to imagine that...I'm doing SOME good work in academics / government policy.

So far, the program is not only illegitimately presenting its features - which ALONE WOULD CAUSE ME TO call an all hands on deck repair brigade out - not ONLY is there this issue but, BUT...as @igorlima says - USING the product confuses. So, in ACTUAL POINT OF FACT...people hoping to pursue justice or academics are only being held BACK in that work using the product. Getting confused. If the shame of saying:
If there is a bookmark at the top and bottom of every page, It is entirely expected that the one at the bottom will be skipped, if you do not line up the viewing area perfectly to have the last sliver of the page where this "page end" bookmark actually starts.
...and calling THAT support, well if the shame of that doesn't motivate, then perhaps knowing you're making the work of people involved in justice and academics - or even good folks hoping to enhance "personal knowledge" of what they've read harder...maybe that will inspire a faster than an in-a-decade, maybe, change.

Sincerely,

SW
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

Phew, even more walls of text...

Guys, give me a sample file, and I'll instantly tell you what's happening
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by PHK »

standish-001 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:30 am...
Regrettably, I have to say that you’ve missed the point again.
...
Yes, I suppose I am too thick to get your so well-articulated points, SW. I'll leave it to you continue your wall of words in view of my disqualification.
All best,

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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

O.k. the problem here could indeed be due to a bug, or due to an unexpected program behavior.

It seems that bookmarks (that should point to a text location) are only created with the correct Y-coordinate (matching the text that was selected when the bookmark was created) when the bookmark was created using the keyboard shortcut (CTRL+SHIFT+B).

If the Toolbar button for "new bookmark" is used instead:
Image
...then the Y-coordinate does not correspond to the selected text, but to the upper edge of the currently visible document section.

That's why the "Bookmark reading highlighting" doesn't work correctly for Igor (and probably also not for SW), because at least Igor didn't create his bookmarks with the key combination, but with the toolbar button, as can be seen in his video:
https://forum.pdf-xchange.com/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=37781&p=156011&hilit=video#p156011

Probably this behavior should be made consistent in PDF-XChange Editor, such that the coordinates of the currently selected text are also applied to a bookmark when creating bookmarks with the toolbar button, instead of applying the coordinates of the currently visible page section to that bookmark.

Until then, Igor and SW should not use the button but the key combination to create their bookmarks. In this case, the "reading highlighting" of the correct bookmark should work, even if there are several bookmarks on a page.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by standish-001 »

Hi,

@PHK
You sound like your feelings are hurt, and so you’re signing off. When I read that I feel disappointed.
I meant no disrespect. I’m here to get support for a bug.
You asked where “legitimate” fits in. I answered.

@ David.P
Walls of text? Shades of an Ad Hominem attack. Fallacy of Relevance. An attempt to get people to look away from the MAIN point.

“Phew! What a wordy guy!”

“MAN! That guy just writes too much! No need to listen to all that”

“He’s just a…”

See how that works? The question is not "Is that a lot to read?" - the question is - “Am I right?”

Instead of saying, “Phew! What a loooot of text!” You might, instead say, “Wow! Thanks for taking the time to so clearly explain what’s going on.”

I would discern from the AMOUNT of writing you see there…how troublesome this “Feature” is.

As I mentioned - look at Igor's post. Two posts, an animated GIF, a file AND a MOVIE. Will you call him "overly creative"?

At least @PHK was nice enough to say I was “well-articulated”! :D

Finally, I need to add - I ALWAYS use CTRL+SHIFT+B, and I see EXACTLY what Igor showed in his GIF.

ALWAYS - every time. I've actually NEVER used the ribbon / toolbar to create a bookmark

Sincerely,

SW
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by David.P »

SW you are starting to get rather irritating with your ongoing accusations against people who are trying to help.

Just attach one of your files for inspection here, and we'll see what the remaining problem is.
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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by PHK »

standish-001 wrote: Sun Dec 12, 2021 3:58 pm ...You sound like your feelings are hurt, and so you’re signing off...
This isn't high school and my feelings aren't hurt. But if you are looking for support of your position, you have a funny way of soliciting engagement, at least as I see it. If, over the course of ten years, you and one or two other users are the only ones outraged by your perceived deficiencies I don't think Tracker Software needs to drop everything and prioritize this. So, yes, I am signing off.
All best,

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Re: Highlight Feature - the Sequel

Post by TrackerSupp-Daniel »

Hello, everyone

SW, I want to make sure you are aware, as some of your statements to the others here, who have been trying to help, in their own free time, is admittedly quite abrasive, and seem to make the assumption that they are employees. None of them work for or with us at tracker software, though they are users who frequently post here, and we often interact with them, for feature requests bug reports, and the like. If you ever want to be sure of someone's identity, you need only look at the name of the poster; if their name is in blue, they are not an employee, but another user like yourself, just trying to be helpful.

Having read through all of this, I am unsure what to say. Frankly it appears you are already done with the software, and are not willing to accept support from any source, so I will keep this brief.
In the previous topic, after watching a particularly helpful video, I mentioned that if there is a bookmark at the top and bottom of *every* page, it would be expected to see the latter one skipped, this is because unless you line up the page perfectly to show the last one, it would jump directly to the next one, at the top of the next page, (in essence skipping a bookmark which is only one pixel tall).

David makes an excellent point here, and one which I certainly missed until now, the handling of Ctrl+Shift+B is different from clicking the button, although this is again, an intended difference, to allow for people to choose which method they wish to use, I can see how it would be confusing. The button you see on in the bookmarks pane (by default) is "New bookmark":
image.png
While the command Ctrl+Shift+B activates is instead "Add bookmark" (which I have added for this example):
image1.png
image1.png (9.22 KiB) Viewed 1786 times
You can certainly customize the UI, as I have, so that both bookmark functions are in this pane, and I will pass a suggestion to the dev team to do this by default in a future release, though I cannot promise it will change since the option to do so manually already exists.

Now, this topic Is going to be locked from future postings. Going forward, please note that being excessively rude to other forum users can and will result in a ban on our forums.

Kind regards,
Dan McIntyre - Support Technician
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