Ask/Tracker Toolbar in version 2.0.47

[HAN]

I was severely disappointed to see the addition of the Ask Toolbar to PDF-XChange Viewer. Ask is notorious for their unprofessional approach to dumping their pre-checked (to automatically install) software on unsuspecting users. The excuse that a user always has the option to deny the installation is ludicrous as we all know that the end user typically clicks through most of the installation screens. Ask relies on this innocent tendency and then installs unwanted software on unsuspecting users.

Until now, I have been a very proud user and promoter of PDF-XChange. Sadly, I no longer feel that way...

If you want to regain the trust of your users, make the default Ask Toolbar offering unchecked. Then if your users want it, they are consciously installing it.

Please do the right thing here, I beg of you!!

[Paul - Tracker Supp]

Thanks for the feedback HAN,

we are always interested in user opinion so I appreciate your taking the time to express yours. We will monitor the situation over the coming weeks and if necessary will make appropriate changes. Rest assured that if there is a massive response we will not ignore it.

sincerely

[benradu]

HAN expressed my view and I totally agree with his comment. Please consider removing that step or at least make it unchecked by default. I am an old user an promoter and also translator in one language of this tool. I never thought that tracker would do something like this. Please do not do this to your growing user base because I believe it's going to hit you back. The average user will just keep clicking next and the result will be one more toolbar in their browser bearing the tracker/ask name. Personally, if a program installs something without asking properly, I would uninstall it immediately.
Please, do yourself a favor and consider removing this step.
Thanks for the best pdf viewer!
Ben

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Paid program with adware - great deal!

[John - Tracker Supp]

The Ask Toolbar is optional and can be unchecked and also if you are using the silent install options - can be set so that it is never installed using the silent switches.

As already mentioned we will be monitoring this and adjusting the installation defaults as time goes on - nothing is set in stone !

Further - the vast majority of users of the Viewer are not paying for it and the revenue generated hopefully will allows us to not only maintain the current development progress - but to continue to dedicate additional resources.

This is the first build we have included the ASK toolbar as an optional item - gives us a little time please to work with this and review.

[BigMike]

I'd also like to add my two cents...

At first, I'd like to say, that I understand, that developing the viewer and providing support at such a high level like Tracker Software is doing is pretty expensive. I don't know any other commercial software, where the vendor provides assistance for any kind of problem like Tracker Software is doing.
I mean, it's really hard to be faster with a response here in the forum, than the "official" support crew is. And if the problem isn't easy to solve, one will get immediately contact to someone of the development team and additional support via mail, instant messenger or even remote desktop connection if it seems appropriate. And nobody asks if one is a paying customer or "only" a user of the free version.

So I think it's absolutely legitimate to search for new ways of getting some revenue. And I'd say it's a pretty common way, to do this with these additional search bars. I prefer this still optional way a lot over downloading ads and displaying them inside the program, for example. So I think the responses are a bit harsh.

But basically I support HAN's opinion.

I don't share HAN's opinion in the following points:
- I think it's not Ask's approach, but the vendor's decision to enable/disable the installation by default (but surprise - they also want to earn money).
- I'd also like to claim, that the installer asks properly and users should be used to these "goodies".
I think, it's true - enable by default and you catch a lot of people who wouldn't have installed it otherwise - but this is a problem on the user side. It's definitely our part to read what we're installing on our systems.
- For me PDF-XChange Viewer isn't less recommendable because of an optional toolbar.

I think disabling the toolbar's installation by default is a very good proposal, because of the following reasons:

- I can't see any benefit in these custom search bars for the user, since any of today's browsers has an integrated search field by itself and I don't need any of the additional features. (OK, I'm a bad example, since IE isn't my primary browser...) Neither does anyone I know.
- When I see a totally cluttered IE interface and ask, why the corresponding person has all these toolbars installed, he's probably not able to give me a proper answer. He's obviously one of the non-reading clickies. (I also know female users, having had cluttered interfaces.) The next question is generally: "Do you use any of these toolbars?" Which is generally answered with "No", followed by a deinstallation, because they have to admit, that the interface isn't handy as it is.
- If a user actively decides to install the toolbar, because he likes to support Tracker Software or because he really likes the features of the toolbar, he'll happily activate the corresponding checkbox.

Finally, it's a simple question of profit.
How much will you earn with the "clickies" out there, who probably don't use your toolbar - just as all the others they've installed, but associate your company's logo with their cluttered IE interface? I can't estimate how much it is - since there are many companies out there, using the toolbar strategy it must be more than I imagine.
In contrary, if I ever meet a user telling me, that he installed a toolbar, because he was impressed by the other software, the toolbar was bundled with, I promise - I'll for sure have a closer look at that software myself. (OK, this doesn't help you, I'm already convinced of your products)

Thanks for reading, kind regards,
Michael

[Mr. Nice Guy]

The Ask installer phones home before the information is given about that askbar crap.

[John - Tracker Supp]

Thanks BigMike/Mr NiceGuy - all noted and I genuinley appreciated your comments and concerns - both good and bad ...

[Cadillakin]

I don't really like the idea that paid software will install extra goodies on your computer if you're not paying close attention to the installation.. I support Big Mike and Han's position. The bundled ask.com software does indeed make an outbound connection before there is any agreement to install.. which I don't particularly like ...

With that said, I can support whatever your decision may be.. as long as nothing is being installed or written to disk without user permission.

[John - Tracker Supp]

Thanks for the input Cadillkin ..

I have been discussing with out team here and one of the options we are looking at and I anticipate we will put in place before the next release for those who do own a license already, is to ensure that the ASK defaults are set to 'NOT' install if a user has a serial number and/or this is an update to an existing, licensed installation...

Also - please be aware - that the ASK toolbar is only present in the Viewer standalone installer and liveupdate - not in the PDF-XChange PRO installer, so that would not be affected anyhow.

But, for sure I see no reason why a licensed user should be offered a default to switch to install the toolbar - it should for sure be 'opt-in' - not 'opt-out' option.

Hope that helps

[twl845]

I agree completely with poster Han. I do not like trickery to make extra income. Let the installer make his own decisions on his own. Too many people get caught up in the installation and don't catch your checked radio box, only to discover they have been had when the installation is complete. Then they have to try and uninstall the Ask crap.

[John - Tracker Supp]

There is no trickery involved ...

Our intention is never to intentionally deceive or acrue income by nefarious means - anyone who has dealt with us for any period of time I am confident understands our motives and will agree that we try to be honest and transparent in every way - but..

It is a fact of life that we all need to pay our mortgages, feed and clothe our families and so on - and this is not done on charity - some people will find the ASK toolbar useful and not have any issue with its installation - others will not.

There is a switch that allows every user to not install the ASK Toolbar and we do provide instructions in the help file to disable/uninstall - and with the best will in the world - we are not unique in deriving income from a 3rd party toolbar - its a very common option and does provide valuable income to allow us to continue to develop the FREE PDF-XChange Viewer as well as the paid for version.

If our intent was to 'screw' every user to force them to spend money - the balance of the useful features would be available in the paid for - not free versions, and that is not so, we provide many options such as PDF2image, Annotations/commenting, forms fill/save saving and even file encryption/security in the free version.

Just look at the feature list and the vast bulk of the features are provided without charge - so any suggestion that we are not genuinley providing a free version, stuffed with features is 100% refuted - BUT - if you want us to keep adding features in the free version and not just the paid for version - this has to be paid for... somehow.

The only responsibility users of the free version have - is to check what they do and do not want to install - if you are not willing to accept that responsibility - with respect - be careful, very careful what you downlaod and install - because sooner or later its not going to be a toolbar that may irritate you when you download some free 'gizmo' - but something considerabley worse, and respectfully that wont be anyone's fault - but your own.

The only comfort I can offer in this case -it wont come from us - because we do take our role and our reputation very seriosuly and guard it jealously.

[twl845]

Thanks for your response. I trust that Tracker will do the right thing. FYI - When I did my update earlier, I unchecked the option for the Ask toolbar. I just accessed my JV16 Power Tools cleaning out the trash so to speak. There in the midst of the keys were two ASK toolbar keys from when I deselected the radio button. Gone but not forgotten I guess.

[HAN]

Beyond my comments above, I have discovered an installation problem related to the toolbar.

On 2 separate XP machines, I have attempted to install 2.0.47 while offline. The installer hangs with no feedback of any kind. There is no cancel button, no nothing. I finally started Task Manager to kill the install process and discovered that a process called AskInstallChecker was running. Only when I killed it did the install proceed normally.

I'm not sure where you'll end up with this issue but clearly something is awry with the installer as it currently exists...

[John - Tracker Supp]

The ASK portion of the installer (over which we have no direct control or ability to modify) does call home and one of the functions it performs is to record that a client has installed the Toolbar - this is the trigger that records the total number of clients each month that have installed the toolbar and therefore what payment is due to Tracker for the introduction of that mutual client.

So there is no bug or problem - once again - if you do not want the Toolbar or approve of its behaviour - un-check the install as an option.

Guys - a little bit of an economics lesson here if I may be so bold and in fear of coming across a a patronizing 'ass'...

As you know we are currently working on the next major upgrade to the Viewer that will include numerous new features and a new UI to allow us to do some exciting things - as well as the numerous support persons you see on these forums - there are 8 developers involved in the hard core programming of this update.

Now the vast majority of the users of our Viewer are using the FREE version and we welcome it ... thats why we included so many hard core features in the free version - that virtually every other product out there expects you to pay for.

So there is a FREE product, FREE support to all comers (promptly) - without question or quibble (ever been asked for a serial number before getting help ?) and direct access to the dev team to suggest features and functions and get help too.

Now to pay for the all this - we can start to strip out the free features, cease to offer new functions in the free version and cut back on support and provide this to paying clients only, or ...

we can partner with ASK and and provide a useful feature for many - yet allow everyone to opt out if they prefer, and continue as we have up to now with a predominantly free product, free support and all the rest.

I believe most of our users would prefer the 2nd choice - its not that onerous or intrusive - it will not irritate or annoy 99% of those out there and will provide us with valuable income to allow us to continue with the model we have chosen for the Viewer and possibly extend this very soon to at least one or more of our other creation products ...

I have said that we will address some issues noted and we will - but for now - we have decided that if all works out with ASK this is a win, win situation for all and we see no major issue.

So please - lets just all back of a little, give it some time and allow us to pursue the important tasks ahead - improving the product and adding new features and functions and revisit this in a couple of months when the dust has settled a little - Please !

[twl845]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the inclusion of the ASK toolbar option, just the radio bar checked by default. Now that I know enough to watch for it, I'll just remember to uncheck it in the future. As for your reader, it's the best.

[HAN]

Sorry but apparently John missed my comments about the freeze-up. This is a serious bug. It should not freeze the installation when installing offline. An Example of software that that has the Ask Toolbar as part of it's setup that does not freeze-up things is the free version of BurnAware.

Please investigate this situation!

[adbare]

Let me first say that I don't have all the facts about your business or how you make money but I wanted to chime in on this subject.

First, it is great that this posting is here and not locked or deleted away.

Two, it seems to me that you have a great opportunity to get a lot of business from people looking to get away from Adobe PDF. Their program is more bloated than ever and they have now become a security risk on computers. I am looking for a PDF reader for my company that is secure and not over 50MB.
While you say it is a free product, remember that people who use it and like it give you free referrals. Now is the time to work hard building up your name and creating customer goodwill and then you will reap the benefits down the road.

Another way to skin this cat is to give geeks all the tools they need to easily circumvent things they don't want. Put a copy of the reader on a ftp site that doesn't have the ask bar in it and put a link to it on the forum. Geeks probably weren't going to use the toolbar anyways and they are how your product is going to spread.

A third option would be to make a paid version for businesses of just the reader that cots $5 a license (just throwing a number out there) that doesn't have any crapware in it. There is value in just a pdf reader that works well and is not a security risk.

While you are waiting for the dust to settle, trust is being broken. Opt-out is not ok. If you are doing opt-out all ready, then it seems you have already compromised yourself and will have slipped down that slope even further in five years. People looking for a free pdf reader aren't really looking for features anyways, save the features for the pay version.

[rdeans]

... I unchecked the option for the Ask toolbar. I just accessed my JV16 Power Tools cleaning out the trash so to speak. There in the midst of the keys were two ASK toolbar keys from when I deselected the radio button...

Here as well, along with Ask.com in JV16's "software uninstaller".
I DO understand that there is big money to be made for software developers to include this generally unwanted add-on, but...
I am somewhat disappointed that a paying license holder of tracker software is not exempt from this.

[John - Tracker Supp]

As I have already said - the next release will make the ASK toolbar default installation for licensed users unchecked !

As far as the economics are concerned - I have been fairly open throughout this thread about our motivations and answered equally openly about the financial considerations and with resepct dont feel the need to expand on this.

As stated pretty clearly - we are not closed minded on the whole topic and will review what can be done.

BUT - we do intend for now at least to let this run for a few weeks and get some statistics - once we have some 'real' world figures to base our decisions on - we will review and advise further.

For now - if you dont want the ASK toolbar - dont install it - or just disable/uninstall as you wish.

[rdeans]

..the next release will make the ASK toolbar default installation for licensed users unchecked !...

Would this be applicable to licensed users of ANY Tracker software (i.e.: PDF-XChange Standard)?

Although the Ask.com toolbar inclusion has not earned much in the way of favorable comments here, I sincerely appreciate the frank candor of the Tracker staff in their responses.

[John - Tracker Supp]

Thanks for the considered comment -m appreciated.

For now we intend to make the option unchecked if you have a PDF-XChange Vewer PRO, PDF-XChange PRO or PDF-Tools license - all essentially the products which allow unrestricted use of all the Viewer PRO functionality ...

The other products install the free version and hence the install of the ASK toolbar would require unchecking - however we will also make it possible for the silent installer switches in all products to disable the ASK toolbar as part of the command line/batch file or MST options too - ensuring that silent installs configuration for larger installs by system admins are not burdened either.

Hope that helps

[Cadillakin]

As I have already said - the next release will make the ASK toolbar default installation for licensed users unchecked !

As far as the economics are concerned - I have been fairly open throughout this thread about our motivations and answered equally openly about the financial considerations and with resepct dont feel the need to expand on this.

As stated pretty clearly - we are not closed minded on the whole topic and will review what can be done.

BUT - we do intend for now at least to let this run for a few weeks and get some statistics - once we have some 'real' world figures to base our decisions on - we will review and advise further.

For now - if you dont want the ASK toolbar - dont install it - or just disable/uninstall as you wish.

Don't sweat it, John. If things get too difficult, you can always offer a web class teaching the users how to uncheck a little radio box within the install. If you pay well, I'll teach the class myself!

[John - Tracker Supp]

Maybe I'll attend myself

[HAN]

Any responses to my bug discovery?

[adbare]

we will also make it possible for the silent installer switches in all products to disable the ASK toolbar as part of the command line/batch file or MST options too - ensuring that silent installs configuration for larger installs by system admins are not burdened either.

Hope that helps

Thank you John, that does help a lot. I am looking forward to this feature. Thanks for the great product.
What is the best way to find out when this feature has been released?
Andy

[John - Tracker Supp]

Hi Andy,

This will be in the next release - due next week (builds 2.048 and 4.0178 respectively)

cheers

[ksudavid]

As far as I'm concerned this software is one of the few cases where the rule "If it's too good to be true, it probably is" does NOT apply. It is ubelievable what you get for this software at such a low price and with excellent support that is so hard to find these days.

I pay for the Pro version and if you want to add an optional toolbar to keep this functionality+price+support combination at such an outstanding level then go ahead. I'll opt out and get on with my job. I haven't found anything that's even close to what I get with this software and wouldn't trade it even if yoiu forced the toolbar on me.

Thanks,
David

[John - Tracker Supp]

Thanks David - that really is very much appreciated, we all enjoy what we do here and 99.99% of our interactions with clients is positive (hopefully mutually so ) - and its always great to get such confirmations !

Thanks from us all !

Cheers